Pavarotti to Hartley/De Renzo

[bdw0617]

http://breeding.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=42005

Okay.. this is getting out of control.

It started with Half Ours. They said "hey, we are going to retire a horse that was a 4 million dollar yearling, that had grade 2 ability for over 15 thousand dollar per live foal because he was a 4 million dollar yearling, but could not stay sound long enough to do anything signifiant"

"okay" sakaguchi said, "I'm going to do one better.. I'm going to retire a mr. sakaguchi, after only 4 starts, an 8 million dollar yearling, and he was hurt before he could even attempt to get to graded stakes, but had graded stakes potential"


Ah.... But The Coolmore bunch tromps all..

"We are going to retire Pavarotti, a 2.5 million dollar yearling, after he has PROVEN he does not have graded stakes ability."

game, set match


I mean I actually kinda like the horse. He has had some stiff company in his short career, espically out in SoCal. Every horse he got beat by was a graded stakes calibur horse.

But in your "going to shed" article, when your accomplishments state

Pavarotti led all the way to win this year's Round Table Handicap

that tells me that you really didn't get to accomplish too much in your career.

Breeding wise, he's ovbiously nice, 2.5 million yearling nice, and if you like his damside you will probably like him, but this is a horse who if correct might have moved up next year, espically when alot of people think next year's handicap class isn't that great.

I don't think it was a very smart move. left alot of money on the table, assuming he's healthy

[chicago78]

What's the problem? He's standing in Florida for $6,500. He's a stakes winner by A.P. Indy. He'll fit in Florida for sure. Studs that retire to Florida are either very well bred with marginal ability, or horses with good records that aren't commercial enough for Kentucky. He's a half brother to Snow Ridge, who is the #2 second crop sire in the state, and he's better looking and by a better sire than that one.

[Rokeby Forever]

Why don't Hartley/DeRenzo stand The Green Monkey? After all...they're the guys that sold him.

[bdw0617]

What's the problem? He's standing in Florida for $6,500. He's a stakes winner by A.P. Indy. He'll fit in Florida for sure. Studs that retire to Florida are either very well bred with marginal ability, or horses with good records that aren't commercial enough for Kentucky. He's a half brother to Snow Ridge, who is the #2 second crop sire in the state, and he's better looking and by a better sire than that one.

the problem I have is as a 4YO he could very well be a grade 2 winner. COULD be. with that pedigree, that jumps from 6500 in Florida to 20k in Kentucky. leaving money and chances of success on the table.

he wasn't a BAD horse. I just think it's a premature move.

[Mahubah]

Actually, Snow Ridge would be the third leading second crop sire in Florida if he were still in the state -- Three Wonders and Graeme Hall are one-two on both the BH and TT lists and both rank ahead of Snow Ridge nationally. Snow Ridge is now at Moon Lake Farm in Louisiana, where he was moved when Padua shut down its Florida operations.

Anyway, given the performance of some other A.P. Indys, wouldn't have been surprised to see Pavarotti continue improving with maturity, though it's always possible that soundness issues are at play. Hartley/De Renzo seems to specialize in well-conformed young sires from fashionable lines to appeal to Florida's commercial breeders and this guy seems to fit that niche pretty well. The only stallion on the place who wouldn't fit the mold of "potential hot young commercial sire" is Diligence and I don't give him long there unless there's some personal connections with reasons to keep him there; he only bred 19 mares last year and 6 mares this year.

[chicago78]

the problem I have is as a 4YO he could very well be a grade 2 winner. COULD be. with that pedigree, that jumps from 6500 in Florida to 20k in Kentucky. leaving money and chances of success on the table.

he wasn't a BAD horse. I just think it's a premature move.

He probably isn't healthy enough to run next year, or else they would. I'm not going to breed anything to him, but it's a nice place to stand him, they are very in tune with the market, and it make sense to me. Mr. Sekeguchi and Half Hours are the same. They aren't sound enough to run and improve next year, so they are retired. Happens all the time.

[Mahubah]

Probably right. This horse hasn't raced since July 14 and there's doubtless a reason.

[Indychase]

Probably right. This horse hasn't raced since July 14 and there's doubtless a reason.

I've got him in my stablemail -- I don't think I've got a work from him since the Round Table. I'm pretty sure he's not sound.

[brogers]

http://breeding.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=42005

Okay.. this is getting out of control.

It started with Half Ours. They said "hey, we are going to retire a horse that was a 4 million dollar yearling, that had grade 2 ability for over 15 thousand dollar per live foal because he was a 4 million dollar yearling, but could not stay sound long enough to do anything signifiant"

"okay" sakaguchi said, "I'm going to do one better.. I'm going to retire a mr. sakaguchi, after only 4 starts, an 8 million dollar yearling, and he was hurt before he could even attempt to get to graded stakes, but had graded stakes potential"


Ah.... But The Coolmore bunch tromps all..

"We are going to retire Pavarotti, a 2.5 million dollar yearling, after he has PROVEN he does not have graded stakes ability."

game, set match


I mean I actually kinda like the horse. He has had some stiff company in his short career, espically out in SoCal. Every horse he got beat by was a graded stakes calibur horse.

But in your "going to shed" article, when your accomplishments state

This is competely moronic.

Forums like this have the right to criticise, don't get me wrong to start with, but people basically get on this forum, or should I say this stallion thread and kick the S$%t out of any stallion that retires to stud. If it is not the soundness, it is the service fee, if it is not the fee it is the trainer using drugs to prop up his performance, if it is not the trainer it is the conformation of the horse, if it is not the conformation....you get the idea.

I was looking at the comments that have been made on this site on some of the first season sires that have retired and I couldn't find one that wasn't criticised. Wilko/Jazil/English Channel are too small, Lawyer Ron has no female line, Bob and John was too slow, Corinthian is going to be the next Sky Mesa, etc, etc.

In almost the same breath you then decry the fact that stallions are now serving such big numbers of mares. The stock catchcry of "soundness of the breed being compromised by uproven stallions" is toted out on just about every horse now to further criticism that these stallions are retiring under what they deem as dubious qualifications, subsequently serving such big numbers of mares before their usefulness as a stallion is established.

Have none of you worked out yet that you only have yourself to blame for this? That by being so critical on this site and others that you are in fact perpetuating the problem? If a stallion retires to stud now and doesn't check every box then he is set for a merciless bashing on this forum and when they do check every box they get a bashing anyway because the fee is probably deemed to be too high

Because breeders on this site and others (and in general) are raising the bar each time to what they expect to get for their dollar, stallion farms are becoming increasingly demanding on what they will retire to stud. I would love to try to stand an Arc or English Derby winner at Taylor Made. I think it would be great and would probably bring a lot to the table. But do you think it is going to happen. Hell no, because you would all think he was too slow, or turf only, or by the wrong sireline (insert your own pet criticism here...) So now stallion owners only go for what is safe and popular and as a result we are in fact getting more and more critical of anything that is out of the box. How many of you like North Light? What about Hat Trick?

Bacause we are in an increasingly commerical game and everyone is getting all to critical of stallions that are retiring to stud we are becoming our own enemy. Last year the number of stallions in North America FELL 8% in one year! 2,808 stallions served some 56,000 mares last year. Ten years ago there were 4,675 serving the same number. That is 2000 stallions that have not been replaced - and you wonder why stallions are serving bigger books now....Want to see where it is all headed? Try Australia...20 years ago they had 2000+ stallion serving some 25,000 mares and now the same number of mares are being served by less than 800.

We should be trying to get more stallions not less stallions in the population and if you go in and hammer every stallion that retires to stud you are merely perpetuating the problem.

[Morningside]

brogers, well said!!!

[madelyn]

brogers, I agree.

I have a really nice mare in foal to Osidy, that got ONE season in KY. I LIKED Osidy. I thought he offered a unique opportunity.

A hot horse I want to try to have a good mare for this year, in my opinion, is Silent Name. I still love Artie Schiller. And Southern Image. I have a mare I REALLY like for Jazil.

What is perhaps is a bit unsettling is that some of the folks here that do the bashing are not even breeders. So if it is affecting decisions made in the heart of the Bluegrass perhaps they are marching to the wrong drummer.

[Roguelet]

brogers, I applaud you for expressing your frustration without turning it into a personal attack... others on this forum could learn from you.

Lately, it seems that the majority of posts are negative or "bashing" of someone or something in some way. Notice, I did not say the majority of POSTERS, but the majority of POSTS.

A lot of folks are getting very tired of it and would like to see the exchange of ideas return without all the constant negativity thrown in. Many are refraining from posting simply because they don't want to end up having their opinions bashed or being called stupid or being talked down to by someone with an unrealistically high level of self-importance.

I SINCERELY hope that these negativity-spreaders will read your post and those agreeing with it, and think LONG AND HARD about how they come across and what they could do to present their thoughts and ideas in such a manner as to spark thoughtful discussion, not eye-rolling and sighs.

Meanwhile, as far as stallions go, my biggest pet peeve is people who bash a stallion or some aspect of a stallion based on nothing but assumptions. If you don't KNOW the reason behind a stallion's less than stellar race career, don't ASSUME unsoundness. If you don't KNOW what the stallion's conformation is, don't ASSUME it's a mess just because someone else said so or whatever. Contact the stallion owner yourself and ASK. Go see the stallion in person. I see far too many people letting the opinions of others affect their own opinions, and I think that ends up clouding some judgement and creating false ideas in far too many cases.

[Rokeby Forever]

In almost the same breath you then decry the fact that stallions are now serving such big numbers of mares. The stock catchcry of "soundness of the breed being compromised by uproven stallions" is toted out on just about every horse now to further criticism that these stallions are retiring under what they deem as dubious qualifications, subsequently serving such big numbers of mares before their usefulness as a stallion is established.

Have none of you worked out yet that you only have yourself to blame for this? That by being so critical on this site and others that you are in fact perpetuating the problem?

Now, wait a minute - We all know that Mr Sekiguchi is going to get a huge book at the Hill N'Dale baby factory. I'm of the opinion that Mr Sekiguchi should be a gelding. That opinion perpetuates the problem that there aren't enough stallions around to service all the available mares? The point is - too many stallions today have no right to be a stallion! Buddha got huge books at Hill N'Dale - take a look at his physical and tell me that he's the type of stallion we needed to service large books to help the industry supply the demand.

Yes, we need larger horse populations today because we now have so many racetracks and so many circuits that operate on a year-round cycle. But let's consider something:

Twenty years ago (a time within my memory), I remember when average claimers ran 20 times a year (or even more). Now, there are claimers that run half as much. The need to breed 50,000+ horses a year is because we're producing a breed that simply can't run as often as they once did....if horses could race twice as much as they do today, would we need double the amount of horses bred today vs 1986? No!

Is Mr. Sekiguchi part of the solution, or a continuation of the problem? Was Buddha? Horses that had problems their entire careers and managed to make it to the gate four times getting 150 mares a year is helping matters - especially at the lower end levels?

At a $5,000 fee, Mr Sekiguchi is priced for the "breed to race" crowd. What exactly does "breed to race" mean? I always thought the term applied to the "bread and butter" type horse that would run at lower levels for a number of seasons. A number of seasons....does Mr Sekiguchi offer the promise with his offspring?

Why are we installing artificial surfaces everywhere? It's in the hope(s) of keeping horses sounder/racing longer. That's fine and good, but will the majority of racetracks have these surfaces in 20 years? Will Finger Lakes? Will Suffolk Downs? Will Alberquerque? Will any of the minor league tracks? The smaller tracks in California were state mandated to install new surfaces - otherwise, they'd still be dirt. As sires of "bread and butter" type horses have more and more soundness issues of their own, how would you presume their offspring to run 15 or more times a year on traditional surfaces?

Mr Brogers, let's put our cards on the table. Forestry has sired horses that have raced 25+ times in a career (as good as it gets today). But, what have been the MAJOR selling points for Forestry over the last year or two? A colt that was brilliant but raced only 7 or 8 times over three seasons, and another that was able to blast a 1/8th mile at a baby sale...and has run only twice as a near four year old. On the TM website, I don't see the word "durability" on the Forestry link anywhere - why is that? I'm not blaming TM - my guess is that most people that race a Forestry want a "brilliant" type horse vs a durable type, and that's fine. But as you cater to that market with this horse, I find it a bit hypocritical to blast others of criticizing a Mr Sekiguchi type stallion targeted for the "breed to race" market.

I fail to see how bringing up North Light helps your argument. North Light is indeed Euro...as Euro as it gets. But, does being Euro translate to soundness like it once did? North Light raced all of nine times. Mr Stronach, a HUGE supporter of durable type stallions, seems to be caving under the pressure of current trends with now standing lightly raced horses as well.

Let's suppose that Perfect Drift could stand stud in 2008. There's a classy, sound, hard knocker that lasted several seasons. Would he get more than 30 mares in a year? If the Perfect Drift type stallion got 150 mares a year (as will Mr Sekiguchi), is there even the slightest of possibilities that the breed might be sounder in the future? Most high profile farm managers wouldn't touch a Perfect Drift type horse with a 10 foot pole - these are the types of stallions not being replaced, Mr Brogers. And because they aren't likely to sire offspring that can blast a 1/8th mile at a baby sale, they never will be.

[yukidragon]

I'm guilty of bashing a few for different reasons.
I see the negativity in my posts rise from time to time as well.
An blow a fuse now an then.

Its like a pack of dogs chasing livestock.
Even a good one will join in the chase.

Sometimes no news is good news.

Maybe I need a vacation from posting here.

[kimberley mine]

I was looking at the comments that have been made on this site on some of the first season sires that have retired and I couldn't find one that wasn't criticised. Wilko/Jazil/English Channel are too small, Lawyer Ron has no female line, Bob and John was too slow, Corinthian is going to be the next Sky Mesa, etc, etc.

Your point is well-taken, but not everybody here bashes willy-nilly. I submit to you my own comments on the Adena stallions, with emphasis:

...It is difficult to justify Giacomo at $12,500 with Macho Uno at $20k.

I rather like Silent Name at $7500. I think he is a good horse who wasn't quite Gr-1 quality but could put up a good run. I also think that something happened to him in the Met Mile--he was never quite right after that.

Sligo Bay is well-priced and starting to get some runners. I think Kentucky may have kicked him out too soon.

Who on earth is Aristocrat and what has he done to justify a $5000 fee? Ok, so he's a full to Ghostzapper, but come on, people, he didn't even outrun his conditions.

Because breeders on this site and others (and in general) are raising the bar each time to what they expect to get for their dollar, stallion farms are becoming increasingly demanding on what they will retire to stud.

And so they should. This is a tough game...and the more money you put in to start, the harder it is to turn a profit. Regarding Aristocrat, above, for $5000 (or less) in Florida you can get to Put It Back, Agnes Gold, Repent, Essence of Dubai, Indian Ocean, Mecke, Concorde's Tune, Gibson County or Lido Palace. Every one of those stallions is either better-bred, has better racing performance, or extraordinarily solid progeny performance that dwarfs what (so far) Aristocrat has to offer. Stallion farms have to be demanding--but they also need to be absolutely realistic on how well price-wise their horse shapes up to its competition. Chapel Royal is a great example. Coolmore priced him right at $10k. If Aristocrat had been priced at $1000 I wouldn't knock him for it.

I would love to try to stand an Arc or English Derby winner at Taylor Made. I think it would be great and would probably bring a lot to the table. But do you think it is going to happen. Hell no, because you would all think he was too slow, or turf only, or by the wrong sireline (insert your own pet criticism here...) So now stallion owners only go for what is safe and popular and as a result we are in fact getting more and more critical of anything that is out of the box. How many of you like North Light? What about Hat Trick?

Taylor Made could stand an Epsom Derby winner or an Arc Winner, should you choose to, but you would HAVE to price that horse according to what the market will bear. Otherwise, you'd shoot yourself in the foot. He would fit comparatively few mares (in the US) with a comparatively large choice of stallions and a comparatively small pool of buyers--all of which will bring the market value of that stud fee down. I take it from your comments that either you are not willing to take that risk, or there is no way to make that a profitable venture (especially with the exchange rate).

You brought up North Light...what I just described is exactly what happened to him. Stronach started him way, way, way too high for what the market would bear. His competition (unproven, distance and turf) is Johar, Perfect Soul, Sligo Bay, Kitten's Joy, Bernstein, and Brahms. Not a one of them started over $30,000--meaning that at the very least he was $20,000 overpriced for what the market would bear, unless he brought something really outstanding to the table. Surprise surprise, he suffered for it. Stronach seems to have learnt his lesson with Silent Name--he was a good racehorse with exquisite breeding and is offered at an EXTREMELY attractive price point.

We should be trying to get more stallions not less stallions in the population and if you go in and hammer every stallion that retires to stud you are merely perpetuating the problem.

True, but it takes two. You the stallion manager have to convince us that your horses are good values (and I mean this in the abstract sense), or we will take our business elsewhere. If you constantly price your stallions in a way that makes it difficult or impossible to make money, then you (the stallion manager) aren't helping the situation either.

Now that I've said all that, thanks for a nice post. Good luck at Keeneland.

Edited to add: I like North Light at about $15k, like Hat Trick, love Silent Name, and REALLY love Agnes Gold (especially with an Unbridled mare).