Catienus back to KY

bdw0617 · Postby **bdw0617** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:18 pm

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=42045

maybe they gave up on him too quickly in the first place?

Rokeby Forever · Postby **Rokeby Forever** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:00 pm

What else is new? Any sire that has some success in NY gets sent packing.

I guess his departure makes it a little easier on Becky Thomas with Freud.

pokeyman · Postby **pokeyman** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:21 pm

No big loss.....He was a totally made stallion.

The Ramseys bred 98% of his SWs anyway so better to have him at home.

I would have been more impressed if he upgraded the average Regional mare and got stakes winners. Instead, he got very good KY mares and a lot of them from his owners to get his stakes horses. Big difference.

nythoroughbredvz · Postby **nythoroughbredvz** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:37 am

he wasnt as fake as Freud, at least they didnt spend $330,000 for their own yearling! I think the Ramseys are great people, and a blessing to this sport.

Rokeby Forever · Postby **Rokeby Forever** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:44 am

I wonder how much the current mess with the NYRA and the racing situation in NY led to this decision. There might be a mass exodus out of NY soon - did you read that Bloomberg wants to shut down NYC OTB? How's that revenue supposed to be replaced?

fastappy · Postby **fastappy** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:14 am

[quote="pokeyman"]No big loss.....He was a totally made stallion.

The Ramseys bred 98% of his SWs anyway so better to have him at home.

I would have been more impressed if he upgraded the average Regional mare and got stakes winners. Instead, he got very good KY mares and a lot of them from his owners to get his stakes horses. Big difference.[/quote]

Catienus has 78% winners from starters (204) & 17 stakes winners (6%), f/f of r.a., and median earnings of $25,377. Looks like a horse that is spreading the wealth. When a horse can take advantage of better mares (assuming they're all Ramsey's) that's a good thing.

His AEI is 1.56 vs 1.49, a modest margin but an improvement. His foals are 42% in the money currently & lifetime. I would say he has pretty credible stats. Not everyone has the Ramsey's mares but with 152 winners from starters and median earnings at $25,377, I would say others have benefited as well.

pokeyman · Postby **pokeyman** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:27 am

fastappy wrote:
pokeyman wrote:No big loss.....He was a totally made stallion.

The Ramseys bred 98% of his SWs anyway so better to have him at home.

I would have been more impressed if he upgraded the average Regional mare and got stakes winners. Instead, he got very good KY mares and a lot of them from his owners to get his stakes horses. Big difference.

Catienus has 78% winners from starters (204) & 17 stakes winners (6%), f/f of r.a., and median earnings of $25,377. Looks like a horse that is spreading the wealth. When a horse can take advantage of better mares (assuming they're all Ramsey's) that's a good thing.

His AEI is 1.56 vs 1.49, a modest margin but an improvement. His foals are 42% in the money currently & lifetime. I would say he has pretty credible stats. Not everyone has the Ramsey's mares but with 152 winners from starters and median earnings at $25,377, I would say others have benefited as well.

Good points but we'll have to agree to disagree!! Remember, what percentage of those foals were produced while he was breeding in KY??? You have to factor that in as, generally speaking, the average KY mare will be much better than the average NY mare.

Also, almost all of his stakes horses are Ramsey bred and a good lot are NY Bred stakes winners (again Ramsey bred). His median is credible because he has hit a couple home runs (including the Ramsey bred Precious Kitten who is out of the dam of Champion Kittens Joy). Plus, the purses are much higher for state bred races in NY than your average purse.

Sometimes...stats can be misleading!

I just feel he is no American Chance or Runaway Groom (who bred their way out of Regional markets doing it the hard way). American Chance finally prooved himself yet again and was headed back to KY when he died. However, I can assure you..he was the real deal and upgraded regional mares.

I agree with your point that Catienus didn't exactly drag down these good mares which says something. I am sure a lot of stallions over the years (aka Silver Charm) were given great mares and could do nothing with them. So, that does say something for him.

In today's day in age where stallions are made and not truly proven (can you say Coolmore), it's just hard to separate out the real deals from the pretenders.

Rokeby Forever · Postby **Rokeby Forever** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:07 pm

pokeyman wrote:Also, almost all of his stakes horses are Ramsey bred and a good lot are NY Bred stakes winners (again Ramsey bred). His median is credible because he has hit a couple home runs (including the Ramsey bred Precious Kitten who is out of the dam of Champion Kittens Joy). Plus, the purses are much higher for state bred races in NY than your average purse.

You made some EXCELLENT points, Pokeyman - but what really impresses me about the Ramsey handling of Catienus is that they send lots of their mares to different stallions, and I think they really did some fine mare selection with supporting Catienus - a lot of his foals are pretty good looking horses. It could have come in the form of matching conformations, traits, or anything else in manual, but I don't think it was haphazard. It might be that the mare pool in NY just doesn't match up well with Catienus, and they want to send him to where he'll perform better, as opposed to having him sire misfits with the NY mare population. It's nice to see a breeder nowadays think that way (if my guess is correct).

fastappy · Postby **fastappy** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:20 pm

Pokeyman, I won't bunker down on my position, as these horses are what they are and it never hurts to have a 2nd opinion or two. The good thing about a median stat is that it eliminates that one big horse off of Kitten that could otherwise cloud the picture. Still he has a solid median in earnings. This past year he got 100 mares in N.Y. and 67 the previous year in N.Y. and 111 in K.Y. prior to shipping over.

Obviously he got decent support by N.Y. breeders and they saw some upside there. In California we are normally cringeing from the K.Y. rejects we get on an annual basis. I think it reflects well that at least this one from N.Y. is going in the right direction and getting another shot at the big leagues.

There's not a bunch of N.Y. stallions going the same direction and at least we know this one can hit the pitch.

pokeyman · Postby **pokeyman** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:27 pm

Good points both of you!

I agree he has certianly made the best of his opportunities.

I guess only time will tell..... :-)

winds · Postby **winds** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:44 pm

I believe he was supposed to return to KY after the 2007 season from the getgo. They sent him to give him some exposure and take advantage of the NY bred program, but he was supposed to return to KY before the 2008 season started.

At least that's what I thought I read a couple of years ago.

winds