Why would you breed to a Stallion?

[nythoroughbredvz]

Why would you breed to a Stallion that is not in the stallion book, both thoroughbred times, and bloodhores, not having a full page to look at via the internet, and one that does not have a picture in the catalog to go with his pedigree page? The posting about "Future Storm" being for sale, didnt get decent mares after the first few years, was sent to California, and now for sale! poor horse couldnt make it to be a decent sire! Gee I wonder why I looked through all my old stallion registries, and hes not even in there! How can a stallion owner or a syndicate take someone breeding to their stallion seriously if they cant invest in promoting him? I looked at Stallions in NY most dont have a page, and a lot that do do not have a picture. Not that a picture is a huge selling point, but theres a cold chance in hell id breed to a Stallion that cant have a updated yearly page! and Deffinatelly not to one that the farm saves money on by not having a photo of their product. If they cant see the value in spending the money then why should a mare owner! There would be a lot less stallions that end up failures if they were looked at as a product and advertised. if its too expensive then breed dogs if you cant afford it! you can sell them in a newspaper!

[Gerry]

While I think its nice to see a stallion listed in the directory, its just as easy to look him up at salesring.com under USA stallion or get a free stallion report from Brisnet. Those listings are updated regularly thruout the year. The cost of advertising in all the directories, regionaly, national and in some cases local is cost prohibitive. Each year I give a complete list of the deadlines to my stallion owners and they get to choose how to spend their money whether on a directory listing, breeders cup nomination or state nomination. Unless you are a large outfit, hay, grain, vet, state programs come first then you worry about the thousands of dollars to advertise nationally.

[Dave C]

There are many ways to promote a stallion, buying a page in a directory is just one way and isn't necessarily the best way. How many people breed to Storm Cat or AP Indy based on their directory pages? The number of breeders who breed strictly on the basis of directory pages is very small. If you agree that the number of breeders who breed strictly on directory pages is small, then as a stallion manager you have to ask the question whether it is really money well spent, and maybe the breeders who won't breed just because you don't buy a directory page are possibly people you don't really want to do business with anyways? Promotion only gets you so far, just look at all the young stallions with falling stud fees, it doesn't matter how much you spend on promotion if the horse can't sire runners people aren't going to keep sending him mares. The other side of that is that good sires throw good runners even with very limited opportunities; if he hasn't done much with limited opportunity he never had the potential to be great.

[cj55]

A friend has advertised in the "directory pages" and as far as the internet thier website hits from the directory page has generated four (4) hits to their site. (This for a $1200+ fee without photo costs) Other free sites have generated over 6700+ hits in the same time frame of 10 weeks to their site. The only reason they advertise on the directory page is to get into the annual stallion books for those who do not research on the web. They also donate shares to many state TOBA auctions, which most are not free, let alone BC, and state, nominations. Did you know some Charity Auctions charge the stallion owner a $300 or more fee if their stallion DONATION does not sell? Regional advertisement seems to do better also. Stallion owners pay a lot of fees to stand the stallion and then the advertising... I agree with Dave C on this one. Check out the stallion websites, farm sites, pedigree query com and then also search stallion names on Google and other search engines. It is amazing the amount of info a mare owner can get now on the stallions. There are a lot of good stallions out there to choose from and mare owners need to put something in to finding the best stallion for their mare also InMyhumbleOpinion. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all

[winds]

What I don't understand is the farms that don't have websites to promote their stallions.

I have a small website, and I mean small, it's free so I only have one page, but if I had a stallion, I'd have something bigger right from the get go.

Bye the bye, sometime in the future, mine is going to be bigger and better. You have to advertise somewhere to get business.

winds

[nythoroughbredvz]

A friend has advertised in the "directory pages" and as far as the internet thier website hits from the directory page has generated four (4) hits to their site. (This for a $1200+ fee without photo costs) Other free sites have generated over 6700+ hits in the same time frame of 10 weeks to their site

only 4 hits cant be because of many reasons, how many other sites are there that has their web site address, or link. if its just out there and not atatched to other sites then true they would only get 4 links..And the free sites even though they had 6700+ hits do you really think they were from people breeding thoroughbreds, someone that might bring a mare and hopefully get you breeders awards by breeding to the stallion...NO they are anyone interested in horses,QH owners looking for an apendix, some sicko that wants to breed their Clydesdale mare. and for $1200.00 stud fee lots of people will look, but that does not mean they are into thoroughbreds......

There are many ways to promote a stallion, buying a page in a directory is just one way and isn't necessarily the best way. How many people breed to Storm Cat or AP Indy based on their directory pages?

I think both those stallions have been promoted and reached a level that they do not need advertising to a great extent.so to use the two top stallions in the country as an example isn't even an example.
A.P. Warrior first foals are yearlings of 08, no picture stands for $15,000..
Lawyer Ron 1st year stallion no Photo page stands for $30,000.....
Bob and John 1st year stallion no Photo page stands for $12,500.....
all graded stakes winners.
Sure there are photos to be found of them to look at comformation. You dont look at a photo to see what you like about a stallion? or if he is what your mare needs based on build? Theres even a post on here who has the best comformation!
Atilas Storm 1st year stallion standing for $3,500 full catalog add stands in NM.....
Friar 1st year stallion standing for $3,500 full catalog add stands in NY.....
Both are even advertised for having a video on the Thoroughbred Times website..

And yes there are many wasy to advertise a Stallion or anything else Comercially.No matter what buisiness you are involved in untill your business is established and promotes from service , dependability, and results advertising is important. And the bad part about thoroughbreds is the crop changes every year, new and maybe not better the next year but still the new aspect..If im breeding to a first, second, third or fourth year stallion then I want one thats promoted heavily if not he loses that percentage or portion of value you may get in return as sales results, future mare or stallion prospect value etc..I still disagree I wont buy something horse related or not that isnt promoted. Remember the Delorean? excellent vehicle, stainless steel and well build, his company could have had a future but who knew much about them untill after they went out of buisness?

[cj55]

Nice site for one page and enjoyed your blog also!

[cj55]

Great food for thought and many valid points. I also wonder if perhaps folks got enough info from looking at the directiry pages that maybe they did not feel a need to visit the website and just shoot an email to the farms. Perhaps they should ask the mare owners where they saw information on the stallion. I agree that there is no better thing to do for any business venture than to advertise. Once a stallion has foals on the track that will be the best or worst of his advertisement Thanks for the insight and another point of view!

[Gerry]

NY correct me if I am wrong but didnt you breed to a PA stallion in 2007 that didnot have a National page, picture and the farm doesnt have a website?
I have been reading your posts in several different topics with interest, if I understand what you are saying, stallion owners should advertise heavily and continously and give away the seasons all in hopes of making it up in stallion awards? How are you going to guarantee that the resulting foal IF it makes it to the track actually will race in the state the stallion stands in? And who is going to pay the bills for the 3plus years from the time of breeding until the resulting foal makes its first start and makes some $$?

[winds]

cj55,

Thank you. I'm going to have a much updated website sometime after Feb I hope.

I'm glad you enjoyed my blog, I need to post something on it again soon. My mind is so full of ideas, I have a hard time figuring out what I want to post.........

winds

[nythoroughbredvz]

Yes i did, when I called the farm I was told he was added to the thoroughbred times stallion register late, and he didnt have a photo for the 07 catalog. but he would for the next year, also a website .. and be promoting him heavily for this year. well I dont need to tell you how thats going? I was given a very good deal on the stud fee because my only concern was he wasnt promoted well last year and I bred to him because he was close,liked his pedigree, his full brother was still racing, and I thought that he would be promoted well this year...I have talked about breeding again this year to him, but no matter how much I like the horse he is out of the way as far as "he is not in the prime area for the state" and as you know where you are Gerry its harder to get mares to your stallion unless you assist i transportation, whatever else that you do to help promote your stallions, and you do a great job at this! I offered to transport mares to him to help him out, and in turn maybe help me out by getting more foals on the ground especially now that PA has a good thing going. Thats the reason I started this post.. because I have 3 mares in foal to a stallion that has no connection to a web site, stallion register,anything web realted, no adds in bloodhorse, or thoroughbred times.. And I think they are great people me and another gentleman discussed buying a share or two in him and have that money go to promote him, and that wasnt a posibility.
if I understand what you are saying, stallion owners should advertise heavily and continously and give away the seasons all in hopes of making it up in stallion awards?
No thats not what I'm saying, if I had a stallion that i couldnt afford to promote then I cant afford to have him in the first place. No you dont have to give away seasons but if you breed 30 mares to a stallion standing for say $3,000.00 10% should go to promoting him for his first 4 years to see if he makes it! thats $9,000 per year and you should have change left! even 5% theres is $4,500 stud fee's are nescessary, look through the nybreds.com website and look up stallion awards per stallion there are a few stallions that do very well and profit is profit, you cant get stallion awards if you cant get mares.

[Gerry]

Thanks NY for clearing up my misunderstanding about giving away seasons...for some reason that was my impression and using that as a model I couldnt figure out how a farm to stay in business for very long. But I do now understand and I agree you need to put some$$ back into the stallion each year.

I wonder why the PA farm doesnt at least have a website..that has been puzzling me. I have always liked the stallions that he stands...I go back to the days of Entropy and Who's For Dinner. Geesh if you want to assist in vanning mares to me, who would you like to breed to We arent in the hub of the farms but if you look at proximity to tracks and other states we are very central.

[madelyn]

It costs over $4K to put a photo in the Blood Horse Stallion Directory alone. And the book is two inches thick. For me it is more of a resource volume than something I would use to go stallion shopping. Rocking Trick has a stat page.

The reason you breed to a stallion should not have anything to do with the amount spent on advertising for him. It SHOULD be based on the horse, his quality, his pedigree, his race record, his conformation, and his suitability as a mate for your mare.

[nythoroughbredvz]

I wonder why the PA farm doesnt at least have a website..that has been puzzling me.
it puzzles me too, I have a son that I could bribe into making him a website, I offered that and also to copy all of his races, video clips of his dam, brother etc.. and make a promo dvd to send out, that would be cheep! I had his photo added to his pedigree page, even pute his e-mail address on there so at least there was contact info. I would buy him tomorrow if he was for sale, I have contact with someone that has interest in him also..
We arent in the hub of the farms but if you look at proximity to tracks and other states we are very central.
actually we are in a better location than most NY farms, Ohio,MD,VA, WV, PA, NY, as well as the New England states.all are within reasonable distance.
Remember when the indian hills golf course was for sale on 15? it sold for a low rediculouse price i think $330,000 I looked into it and thay would not entertain offfers unless it stayed as a golf course! that would have made a prime farm.
To be honnest I still want to get up to your farm and see your stallions. right now I only have a 2 horse trailer so its 2 single, or one mare and foal. trying to talk myself into buying a small furniture type trailer and a decent tractor and sending the trailer to Shoop Trailers and have them convert it to a box stall trailer. I have a CDL drove OTR for about 6 years.that would be more for my money than a new diesel pickup and a 5th wheel goosneck.

[nythoroughbredvz]

It costs over $4K to put a photo in the Blood Horse Stallion Directory alone. And the book is two inches thick. For me it is more of a resource volume than something I would use to go stallion shopping. Rocking Trick has a stat page.

so is there a percentage of his fee that you strictly apply to promoting him? would you possibly get a few more mares @$3,500 if you promoted him more? what would the overall profit be if you did?
The reason you breed to a stallion should not have anything to do with the amount spent on advertising for him. It SHOULD be based on the horse, his quality, his pedigree, his race record, his conformation, and his suitability as a mate for your mare.

I dissagree if you cant invest in your product then dont expect anyone else too! that is business! and im not comenting on your stallion I never looked at him, but you can go through the stallion directory, or any other source and throw out stallions just because they are generic. another storm cat son, dam and female family did nothing etc..nothing that makes them stand out! true other things to matter as you stated. if I have to dig for info on a horse you or anyone else owns to see if I want to breed to them, then I just answered myself, NO
If they cant be promoted to some extent then to me have little to no value. its not about the horse its about business ethics. it all shows in sales results, number of mares bred,progeny earnings, quality of mares you may not ever get..Prime example "Rizzie" in NY low end stud fee, he was advertized free with partial breeders awards last year or year before, he is one of the better stallions in NY now, they kept promoting him within the state..I thought they did a great job with him! I would breed to a horse like him that was driven by the business point of view than one that was not, they are the ones that end up in foreign countries, or some off the wall state.