Could somebody please explain?

Elles · Postby **Elles** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:07 am

If there is really such a difference between European/British (turf) racing and American racing how come a horse like this one did so well on European turf: http://www.pedigreequery.com/motivator2
Big part of his pedigree is American!

zinn21 · Postby **zinn21** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:12 am

Elles, I think the biggest difference in European and American style turf racing is the early pace across the pond seems to be more relaxed/slower style. The key to success is a horse with an excellent turn of foot. But that is really the key to success for American Turf horses as well.

I have seen successful horses with American pedigrees excell in Europe and European pedigrees excell on the American turf with turn of foot being the common demominator for both.

madelyn · Postby **madelyn** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:07 pm

In my opinion, I think the biggest difference is opportunity.

Since Europe has mainly turf racing, there is much more opportunity for a horse to win on the grass there.

There are a lot of American horses with tons of "turf" behind their pedigrees. But the tracks here card so few races for the turf (I am speaking VERY generally, I know there are exceptions) that trainers may sit on a "ready" horse for nearly an entire track meet waiting for the right race on the grass. Consequently, I think some trainers tend to prefer horses that are dirt-bred.

Elles · Postby **Elles** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:45 am

Honestly, I don't think that the European horses are slower. How can they be having the same bloodlines?

http://www.pedigreequery.com/secretariat
Look at Secretariat, he traces in the fifth remove to only 4 American breds, the rest of the pedigree is Irish, British or French. In breeding there has been so much mixing of horses bred in different countries that in the end the difference between horses in different countries can’t be that big. Or am I too simple minded?

bcassidy · Postby **bcassidy** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:12 am

Elles, I just took a quick look at this pedigree and I certainly wouldn't say it was a heavy dirt pedigree--- in fact quite the opposite. Mr P while known here in the states as a very strong dirt sire has also thrown some exceptional turf horse and specifically Gone West has also thrown some great turf horses. Sharpen Up is a tremendous turf influence as well so I just don't see what you are noticing in this pedigree that says he should have been better on the dirt. I see about 90% of his pedigree as being excellent on the turf.

bcassidy · Postby **bcassidy** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:13 am

Elles, I just took a quick look at this pedigree and I certainly wouldn't say it was a heavy dirt pedigree--- in fact quite the opposite. Mr P while known here in the states as a very strong dirt sire has also thrown some exceptional turf horse and specifically Gone West has also thrown some great turf horses. Sharpen Up is a tremendous turf influence as well so I just don't see what you are noticing in this pedigree that says he should have been better on the dirt. I see about 90% of his pedigree as being excellent on the turf.

bcassidy · Postby **bcassidy** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:38 am

Elles, I just took a quick look at this pedigree and I certainly wouldn't say it was a heavy dirt pedigree--- in fact quite the opposite. Mr P while known here in the states as a very strong dirt sire has also thrown some exceptional turf horse and specifically Gone West has also thrown some great turf horses. Sharpen Up is a tremendous turf influence as well so I just don't see what you are noticing in this pedigree that says he should have been better on the dirt. I see about 90% of his pedigree as being excellent on the turf.

Elles · Postby **Elles** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:41 am

http://www.pedigreequery.com/mr+prospector
Fifth remove of Mr. Prospector, American bred horses: Black Queen, Display, Ariadne, John P. Grier, La Chica, Ultimus, Man O” War, Whisk Broom, Bill and Coo, Jamestown, La France, Haste, Stephanie and Blue Larkspur. So out of 32 horses, 14 horses are American breds.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/black+queen (fifth remove, no American bred)
http://www.pedigreequery.com/display (2 American breds)
http://www.pedigreequery.com/ariadne (8 American breds)
http://www.pedigreequery.com/john+p+grier (12 American breds)
http://www.pedigreequery.com/la+chica (7 American breds)
http://www.pedigreequery.com/ultimus (12 American breds)
http://www.pedigreequery.com/man+o+war (2 American breds)
http://www.pedigreequery.com/whisk+broom2 (8 American breds)
http://www.pedigreequery.com/bill+and+coo2 (4 American breds)
http://www.pedigreequery.com/jamestown (4 American breds)
http://www.pedigreequery.com/la+france (2 American breds)
http://www.pedigreequery.com/la+france (9 American breds)
http://www.pedigreequery.com/haste (10 American breds)
http://www.pedigreequery.com/stephanie5 (7 American breds)
http://www.pedigreequery.com/blue+larkspur (3 American breds)
Dam of Carson City:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/blushing+promise
13 American breds in the fifth remove but again if you look them up one for one what do we see?
http://www.pedigreequery.com/alcibiades (5 American breds)
http://www.pedigreequery.com/brookdale (10 American breds)
http://www.pedigreequery.com/native+dancer (11 American breds in the fifth remove out of 32 horses and then even http://www.pedigreequery.com/miyako has only 13 American breds!)
http://www.pedigreequery.com/almahmoud (7 American breds)
etc. etc. etc.

Is it safe to say that a lot of speed influences came from Europe?
And do you think that the Europeans no longer cherish the speed in their horses? Even when it is the treasure that wins you races also at the longer distances of say 1 mile and 2 furlongs?

Are these dirt or turf influences?
Because I have never really studied what dirt or turf influences are. It has to do with the way a horses moves hasn't it?

Elles · Postby **Elles** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:35 am