Pedigree Query

To all those who are more knowledgeable about stallions than I am (i.e. most posters on this forum)–
What do you guys think of Say Florida Sandy as a stud?
I haven't seen any pictures of his babies, but I looked at the pedigrees of a few of them and was intrigued. For example:
Personal Worth: out of True Worth by Key to the Mint (Key to the Mint's damsire: Buckpasser!)
First Inspiration: out of Inspire by Top Account
I'm hoping that they'll get Sandy's durability and speed, and maybe some stamina from their dams. What do you guys think? Will Sandy's babies be successful despite their lack of obviously "commercial" blood?

I have a very nice yearling filly by Sandy (out of Royalsaly) and a suckling colt (out of Nicky Soup) so I am biased, but the Sandys are starting to come on stronger. He had an impressive maiden special weight winner at Monmouth in July (Say It With a Kiss), an open stakes winning 2-year-old in his first crop last fall (Say Toba Sandy, who just ran a close 4th in her 3-year-old debut at Belmont), and several other NYRA winners (Sayitisn'tso Joe won first out for Dutrow, plus Return to Karakorum and Say Karakorm Sandy). His foals tend to be very big, which I think will require a little bit of patience on behalf of their trainers, but I've got my fingers crossed for a strong second half of 2008 for one of NY's all-time great homebreds.

I am rooting for him so that is probably the "kiss of death." I have a (soon to be weanling) filly by him. She is the most correct youngster I have ever bred. I bought the dam in-foal to him so, although I am the "official" breeder, I did not design the mating. After buying the mare, I looked up Say Florida Sandy in depth and he is the type of stallion we should all be supporting - he raced 98 times and won 33 races (19 stakes) and won stakes at 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, and 9 years of age.

We breeders lament the fact that horses now days are not as durable as those of the past and yet we stand in line and elbow our way to get our mares to the latest "hot young sire" with a race record of 1 good stakes in a career of 4 or 5 races who retired unsound. What is wrong with us? Slick advertising most likely.

That being said, I will probably sell this filly this fall as a weanling to cut expenses because I know she probably won't sell for enough to reimburse me for her costs to date and keeping her another year would only add to the expenses with no hope of her covering them as a yearling. Sad but true...

That's because he lacks pedigree......tremendously.

So, breeders will take a moderately successful (note- I am not saying complete dud) stallion with a great pedigree (sire of sires, consistent black type, and from a sire producing female family) over an exceptional racehorse with no pedigree.

A great quote- "A horse may outrun his pedigree but never outbreed it". I am sorry I don't remember the author of quote...

Also, I saw this stallion on more than one occasion. Shockingly, he is not the most correct horse I have ever seen in the front legs! However, conformation becomes irrelevant once you have track performance and have demonstrated soundness. For what it's worth- he had the best feet I have EVER seen on any horse of any breed.

It's too bad we always seem to have a division. We need a horse of his race record and soundness but one with an outstanding pedigree!!! I think everyone knew he would not be stud material based on his pedigree and that is why they kept racing him. I assure you...if the owners were offered 50 million for him to go to stud he would have probably been retired in a heartbeat.

I hope he does well but I honestly can't see it happening. I am sure he will get a couple nice horses as even a blind squirrel will find a few nuts. Sorry......I hope he proves me wrong!!

What is it that you think his pedigree lacks, 'tremendously?" It looks pretty good actually, i think, just wondering what it is you think is so bad. is it just because its not as commercial as other? his first couple dams have multiple winners, which is better than so many stallions out there, plus he has a race recoed to say the least. Isnt this what people are complaining about in stallions? Like you said, everyone want soundness, and a race record longer than 3 races, they say they dont want ND or MR. p or storm cat, then when its there they poo hoo it and say its not a good pedigree or not "commercial" so they dont send any good mares to him, then complain he failed at stud. I just dont get it, he does have a pedigree, in my opinion, but Im just a small time horse person, if you dont want those stallions, but you want race record and all that there it is, go for it. You know??

You think his pedigree looks good?? Really. Well, please enlighten me as to your reasons.

In my view, his pedigree lacks everything.

He is not by a sire of sires. In fact, I don't think his sire has ever sired a son who stood in Kentucky.

His first dam is the only decent mare in his pedigree up close.

His second and third dams have not produced any black type at all.

His 4th dam has produced horses that have placed in minor stakes races.

You have to travel to his 6th dam before you find anymore graded black type.

Ideally, you would like to see a horse sired by a decent sire of sires. You would like to see an unbroken chain of black type for at least 4 generations. Graded black type throughout the pedigree not just once is ideal. Lastly, you want the horse to be from a female family that has produced respectable sires.

Thus, it's not because he is of noncommercial bloodlines that makes him a poor stallion prospect but that his pedigree is below average.

I think you are confusing non-commercial bloodlines with a poor stallion prospect- which is incorrect.

Valid Expectations, Halo's Image, Concorde's Tune, Skip Away, Montbrook, etc all have noncommercial pedigrees as they are all at affordable stud fees. However, all are good stallions..........

Also, once a stallion has a sire record than pedigree becomes irrelevant. It is only in determining a good stallion prospect that pedigree comes into play.

For example, take the stallion Prospects Offlee Wild, Sligo Bay, and Johar and compare them to Say Florida Sandy and tell me your thoughts.

Just because a horse is a good racehorse does not make him a good stallion.

However, I do appreciate your frustration over unsound horses going to stud. I, too, share the same thoughts.

Unfortunately, Say Florida Sandy has a $5000 stud fee. If you want noncommercial bloodlines at that price, you could go to Concorde's Tune, Formal Dinner, Sweetsouthernsaint, Take Me Out, Lite The Fuse, etc...all proven stallions.

What is his stud fee? For what it's worth (not much around here ), I like his pedigree too. I don't have the time to argue the point, but I will say the "I don't think his sire has ever sired a son who stood in Kentucky" argument is not a reason to discount anyone.

But all that being said, we're apt to take a chance on horses that we've seen and liked........after all, no matter what you think of their pedigree on paper, for some genetic reason, they're successful. There's a good chance they'll pass that on. To me, it's similar to the son whose parents weren't stellar athletes themselves, or even their parents, but they are. Odds are one of his sons will be even better than he was, and so on, especially if he marries an athletic woman. Of course, your odds of having an athletic son are better if you're a professional sports player yourself - but not many of us are .

I can't afford the stud fees of the proven stallions -- so I have to be creative and look a little harder at the other guys.

May I ask a simple question....Please....Does Personal Flag lack pedigree???

Thats all I wanna know.

Personal Flag does not lack pedigree. Besides being a G1 SW himself he was full brother to undefeated G1 SW Personal Ensign who was a Broodmare Of The Year. They were both sired by Private Account who had over 10% SW to foals and was sired by Horse Of The Year Damascus out of the famous mare Numbered Account by Buckpasser. Their dam Grecian Banner was sired by Hoist The Flag who had over 20% SWs to foals(246 foals 51 stakes winners). Grecian Banner was also a Broodmare of The Year.

I think the point was that Sandy's dam doesn't have much pedigree and not his sire. I personally hope that Sandy does extremely well at stud. Here are some photos of SFS foals from last year.

http://www.nybreds.com/foals/foalb_07/b ... ge_07.html

Th good looking babies! If you know of anyone selling weanlings this year of his please let me know, I will be in the market for a couple of weanlings, or mares in foal at the end of this year, beginning of next, maybe sooner if price is right

I don't have any, but can probably put you in touch with someone who can help. PM me your email address & I'll send their information.

Nessa - nice looking babies. It floored me seeing two chestnuts! All the other foals (except the two with stars on their foreheads) look like my filly with the mares in the background changing. I'd heard that his babies are primarily dark bay/brown or bays. My filly didn't stand a chance at any other color since you have to go back four generations to get any other color.

Walaa - Right now I am on the fence about whether my weanling filly (Say Florida Sandy - Heart Spring) will get sold at the Fasig-Tipton Midlantic December Mixed sale or not. Stay tuned, entries close September 21st. My original plan was to sell her but I think she is the best conformed foal we've bred so I may keep her and sell my other weanling filly (Fantasticat - Falcon's Eye) who is more commercial.

All the SFS foals looked like they have black manes to me. The one obviously chestnut foal is by Artax. Genetically speaking it is the genes a horse inherits and passes on that matter not the names in the pedigree. It is possible,though not likely,that 2 horses with very different pedigrees could inherit an almost identical genetic makeup. One obvious case in humans is Gloria Esteban and her lookalike. They are not related to each other but look so much alike even her relatives had trouble telling who was who.

That was my reason for asking about Personal Flag. The dam may be somewhat weak BUT certainly has a well bred sire. I guess we only look at the dam ( which is extremely important in my veiw) and not the sire. I just can't discard him and say he lacks breeding. He's not overly very well bred but however ok. Lets get him some black type mares and see how he does. Give him a chance to prove himself after all his dam has proven that given the correct stallion she can produce.