I know this type of question may make some of you on here cringe, but I'm curious what prejudices there are against particular sire lines that you can think of off the top of your head. I'm certainly a believer that every individual horse should be evaluated on its own physical merits, but I'm also a believer that there's probably at least some legitimacy to the rumors. I offer as an example that I was looking at a horse with Boundary, I believe as the dam sire, and our vet immediately commented that Boundary would be trouble due to brittle foot issues (obviously Big Brown put that on display a bit this year).
If you feel this thread is counterproductive because it involves gossip more than true know-how, I apologize for fanning the flames...I'm just of the belief that even anecdotal knowledge is worthy of consideration.
Thanks,
Justin
Sire Line Prejudices
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justinnich
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kimberley mine
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The Unbridled's Songs are reputed to be unsound and fragile.
The Storm Cat tribe is said to be full of nutters with bad knees.
The Rahy tribe tends to be small, which is bad for the sales.
Doesn't stop any of them from siring runners.
I think your idea of evaluating each horse on its own is the best way to go, particularly since it ignores the influence of the dam. If you do listen to the scuttlebutt, keep it in mind for breeding stock. A Boundary mare may have good feet, but would you want to breed her to a stallion with dodgy feet? Probably not.
The Storm Cat tribe is said to be full of nutters with bad knees.
The Rahy tribe tends to be small, which is bad for the sales.
Doesn't stop any of them from siring runners.
I think your idea of evaluating each horse on its own is the best way to go, particularly since it ignores the influence of the dam. If you do listen to the scuttlebutt, keep it in mind for breeding stock. A Boundary mare may have good feet, but would you want to breed her to a stallion with dodgy feet? Probably not.
justinnich wrote:If you feel this thread is counterproductive because it involves gossip more than true know-how, I apologize for fanning the flames...I'm just of the belief that even anecdotal knowledge is worthy of consideration.
I don't think it is counter productive for the simple reason that if your in the breeding business you need to know the market perception of various stock. Whether a perceived flaw applies to your horse(s) doesn't change the fact that many people might not even look at your horse(s) because they believe it will have a certain flaw, is something that you have to account for in your marketing plan. Therefore any discussion that brings forward market biases against certain types of breeding may be useful to people who are considering incorporating a sire into their breeding program.
Hi justinnich,
Nice to 'meet' you and welcome and I think that you raise a good topic. Prejudice doesn’t imply accuracy or inaccuracy. Some prejudices affect the stallions’ affection in the sales ring. I’ve heard a lot of things about a lot of horses but I’ve listed some that either persist or may be notable about attributes or characteristics that these stallions are often reputed to have passed onto their get.
Before 1900
Bend Or - spots
Eclipse (1855) - hot tempered
Macaroni - upright pasterns
Spearmint - crooked legs and unsound
St. Albans - crooked legs
1900-1975
Bold Ruler - unsound and distance limited (of course until Secretariat)
Buckpasser - bad feet
Dr. Fager - club foot
In Reality - sprinters and milers
Never Bend - offset knees (thus the phrase, Never Bend Knees)
Never Say Die - soft boned
Phalaris - unsound
Ribot and Nasrullah - hot tempered
Turn-To - unsound
1975 to present
Affirmed and Cure The Blues - robust or weedy foals and their mares threw same
Alydar - hot tempered
A.P. Indy - later developing
Conquistador Cielo and Master Derby - mudders
Crafty Prospector - ugly head
Foolish Pleasure - turned out
Halo (sire line) - coarse individuals, hot tempered
Mr. Prospector - crooked legs, unsound
Pulpit - unsound
Raise A Native - disproportionate front end, unsound, bad legs, ankles and responsible for FannieMae, Freddie Mac failures.
Spectacular Bid - bucked shins
Storm Cat - turf sons have less ability at stud
Unbridled - light underpinnings for size
I don’t necessarily believe or subscribe to these attributes or opinions but these are some that I’ve heard frequently. Crafty Prospector did get some foals with butt ugly heads and Raise A Native seems to be the whipping boy for all pedigree ills in some corners.
Regards,
Pete
Nice to 'meet' you and welcome and I think that you raise a good topic. Prejudice doesn’t imply accuracy or inaccuracy. Some prejudices affect the stallions’ affection in the sales ring. I’ve heard a lot of things about a lot of horses but I’ve listed some that either persist or may be notable about attributes or characteristics that these stallions are often reputed to have passed onto their get.
Before 1900
Bend Or - spots
Eclipse (1855) - hot tempered
Macaroni - upright pasterns
Spearmint - crooked legs and unsound
St. Albans - crooked legs
1900-1975
Bold Ruler - unsound and distance limited (of course until Secretariat)
Buckpasser - bad feet
Dr. Fager - club foot
In Reality - sprinters and milers
Never Bend - offset knees (thus the phrase, Never Bend Knees)
Never Say Die - soft boned
Phalaris - unsound
Ribot and Nasrullah - hot tempered
Turn-To - unsound
1975 to present
Affirmed and Cure The Blues - robust or weedy foals and their mares threw same
Alydar - hot tempered
A.P. Indy - later developing
Conquistador Cielo and Master Derby - mudders
Crafty Prospector - ugly head
Foolish Pleasure - turned out
Halo (sire line) - coarse individuals, hot tempered
Mr. Prospector - crooked legs, unsound
Pulpit - unsound
Raise A Native - disproportionate front end, unsound, bad legs, ankles and responsible for FannieMae, Freddie Mac failures.
Spectacular Bid - bucked shins
Storm Cat - turf sons have less ability at stud
Unbridled - light underpinnings for size
I don’t necessarily believe or subscribe to these attributes or opinions but these are some that I’ve heard frequently. Crafty Prospector did get some foals with butt ugly heads and Raise A Native seems to be the whipping boy for all pedigree ills in some corners.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
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Hold Your Peace
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There are definitely certain traits more common to some sire lines than others.
But, as for myself, racing and breeding is a competition and I usually keep what I learn to myself because if I know a certain stallion and his sons often pass on a certain undesirable trait, and a lot of other people don't know, then that gives me a competitive advantage.
There are also some trainers that know just how to deal with horses from a certain sire who have an undesirable trait (usually due to a lot of experience with horses from that sire) whereas when horses from that sire go to other trainers it's a total trainwreck.
But, as for myself, racing and breeding is a competition and I usually keep what I learn to myself because if I know a certain stallion and his sons often pass on a certain undesirable trait, and a lot of other people don't know, then that gives me a competitive advantage.
There are also some trainers that know just how to deal with horses from a certain sire who have an undesirable trait (usually due to a lot of experience with horses from that sire) whereas when horses from that sire go to other trainers it's a total trainwreck.
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geowarrior
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Pete
Every time I see your avatar I can't help but wonder what you really look like.
I've heard such things as Storm Cat - knees; Araazi - knees, and his son Congaree - knees (they seem to race just fine though); Caro - temper; In Reality - likes the sloppy; and in the words of a poster whose name I've forgotten, Unbridled's Song - 'tall with spindly legs'. I also thought I had once heard of Storm Cat being associated with breathing problems. Don't forget Boundary - bad feet.
And isn't Raise a Native also responsible for the court action that is being taken by VP candidate Palin to reverse the designation of Polar Bears as an endangered species?
Every time I see your avatar I can't help but wonder what you really look like.
I've heard such things as Storm Cat - knees; Araazi - knees, and his son Congaree - knees (they seem to race just fine though); Caro - temper; In Reality - likes the sloppy; and in the words of a poster whose name I've forgotten, Unbridled's Song - 'tall with spindly legs'. I also thought I had once heard of Storm Cat being associated with breathing problems. Don't forget Boundary - bad feet.
And isn't Raise a Native also responsible for the court action that is being taken by VP candidate Palin to reverse the designation of Polar Bears as an endangered species?
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Equipoise28
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Thanks, Pete. I needed a good laugh this morning.
Spectacular Bid - bucked shins
AAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAGGAGGGGGG!!!!
Is that in his progeny or in progeny of his progeny?? Maybe it is a good thing I decided not to press my filly (oo SB broodie) and let her play on the track and work on the trails this year. Good lord I thought I was relatively safe with Mr. Bid.... 
**whispers to geo** I am pretty sure the polar bear debacle is being carried out by 2 legs not 4!!
trying to come up with something brillant..... this may take a while.
Hi Hold Your Peace,
With respect, I can't think of any sire that consistently gets specific traits that are not widely know so that they would yield a competitive advantage. The prejudices and notions about the sires' traits does impact their sales results and if you've deciphered something about a sires' get that allows you to discriminate their stock, more power to you because John Ferguson and Demi O'Bryne still make mistakes (Green Monkey).
I speak to many trainers most of whom are very familiar with their horse but not their pedigree. Many have an idea of siring aptitude (suce as preference for surface) but I don't consider that to be proprietary information. The trainer that tells me that they know of 'undocumented' traits of a particular sire and that they know better how to deal with those traits would be rare indeed and I'd doubt it until proven otherwise.
I was fortunate to have had sources that helped me understand this highly complex industry and I've tried to return their favor. I once advised a groom on a potential mating and later, at a sale, he informed me that a yearling colt that I had interest in was a 'nut job' (his words) and that he had been consistently tranquilized at the sales grounds. That made him a poor fit for the client who was using a small training outfit that didn't need a headcase (and the colt never raced). Sometimes you get back what you give.
Regards,
Pete
Hold Your Peace wrote:But, as for myself, racing and breeding is a competition and I usually keep what I learn to myself because if I know a certain stallion and his sons often pass on a certain undesirable trait, and a lot of other people don't know, then that gives me a competitive advantage.
With respect, I can't think of any sire that consistently gets specific traits that are not widely know so that they would yield a competitive advantage. The prejudices and notions about the sires' traits does impact their sales results and if you've deciphered something about a sires' get that allows you to discriminate their stock, more power to you because John Ferguson and Demi O'Bryne still make mistakes (Green Monkey).
Hold Your Peace wrote:There are also some trainers that know just how to deal with horses from a certain sire who have an undesirable trait (usually due to a lot of experience with horses from that sire) whereas when horses from that sire go to other trainers it's a total trainwreck.
I speak to many trainers most of whom are very familiar with their horse but not their pedigree. Many have an idea of siring aptitude (suce as preference for surface) but I don't consider that to be proprietary information. The trainer that tells me that they know of 'undocumented' traits of a particular sire and that they know better how to deal with those traits would be rare indeed and I'd doubt it until proven otherwise.
I was fortunate to have had sources that helped me understand this highly complex industry and I've tried to return their favor. I once advised a groom on a potential mating and later, at a sale, he informed me that a yearling colt that I had interest in was a 'nut job' (his words) and that he had been consistently tranquilized at the sales grounds. That made him a poor fit for the client who was using a small training outfit that didn't need a headcase (and the colt never raced). Sometimes you get back what you give.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
I've done a bit of research myself...and methinks
Storm Cat--knee and heart problems
Storm Cat's sons at stud: also pass on heart problems
Would never cross Tiznow over Storm cat mares---really bad knees
Mr. P as a broodmare sire--tendon problems.
In Excess, Siberian Summer, Indian Charlie: Fu**** up shoulders.
Toccet: breaks my heart more often than not.
Foals also look really, really strange for the most part.
(but he's improving)
Storm Cat--knee and heart problems
Storm Cat's sons at stud: also pass on heart problems
Would never cross Tiznow over Storm cat mares---really bad knees
Mr. P as a broodmare sire--tendon problems.
In Excess, Siberian Summer, Indian Charlie: Fu**** up shoulders.
Toccet: breaks my heart more often than not.
Foals also look really, really strange for the most part.
(but he's improving)
All shouting does is make you lose your voice.
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pfrsue
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docjocoy wrote:And isn't Raise a Native also responsible for the court action that is being taken by VP candidate Palin to reverse the designation of Polar Bears as an endangered species?
Wait, I must have it wrong, I thought that was Phalaris?
No, no, no. It was the Phalaris line that started the rumors about WMD in Iraq. Credit where due!
Seriously, I thought Weekend Surprise was the source of AP Indy's cryptorchidism. Does that trait get passed down by both sires and dams? Just wondering.
