What Stallion Does California Need?

[Marsalon]

Just a little survey on what does the forum feel is lacking from California Breeding? In other words, what family or line is not well-represented by the studs currently standing in CA? Why and please explain.

[fastappy]

1) A top quality Son of A.P. Indy or Pulpit
2) A top quality son of Danehill or Sadler's Wells
3) A top quality son of Sunday Silence
4) A top son of Holy Bull

Don't need any more Storm Cats, as we have plenty and some really nicely bred ones. Also we don't have a solid Mr. Prospector line stallion, unless Crafty C.T. or Tanners My Man pans out.

[tbrace]

A Cal Stal needs not to be a washout from somewhere else. If you can't make it in Kentucky, where there a are bajillion good mares, you are not going to make it in California, where there are not many at all.

[karenkarenn]

I dont think that Cal needs anymore stallions. Personally I think that that would mess with the affordability. People like me, and there are several others out there that looks for an affordable stallion to bred to our mares. Having a quality Holy Bull or Sunday Silence son would be good but not great because the stud fees would be high. I believe in paying 2,500 to 7,500 for a quality stallion. And getting higher price studs in Ca would scare off the little people like me.
Its the little people that make horse racing a dream come true.
Karen

[fastappy]

I pretty much agee in general with both counts. Home grown success stories like Unusual Heat, Bertrando, Tribal Rule, Benchmark, In Excess, etc. demonstrate that we do have some quality home grown stallions that are well supported, with fees ranging from 4K to 15K.

I do agree we have too many stallions of which most are not quality, in particular the (4) lines I submitted. I still believe there are some good stallion also for the limited budget ($2,000-$3,500) & some are complimentary for the right mare.

I heard that Crafty C.T. is leaving the state, but Sought After looks like a very good prospect for the Mr. P. line as well.

[bdw0617]

it took 5 answers and no one has gotten this one yet in light of what is going on?

stallions that throw durable horses

/thread

[freshman]

A Cal Stal needs not to be a washout from somewhere else. If you can't make it in Kentucky, where there a are bajillion good mares, you are not going to make it in California, where there are not many at all.

Exactly.

Stallions that have been promoted in KY, and then washout to regional programs, have already proven that they can't succeed with good mares, the best mares that they'll ever get. What can you expect when their mare books drop in quality?

There are plenty of exceptions, but l think most regional programs have a better chance to hit a home run with a new vs "used" stallion of any line.

[bdw0617]

http://www.thoroughbredreview.com/durability.htm

there is one sire on that list with an a passable grade from california (high brite). The next highest is stormin fever, who tecnically has not stood in cA yet but will this year, at a D- Grade. i wouldn't be in a hurry to bred to these stallions either.

and yep, dirt is the problem with socal racing. dirt.

[fastappy]

You know that durability index is flawed when you see so many good stallions from Ca. to Ky. getting F's like Unusual Heat, Bertrando, In Excess, Street Cry, Theatrical, etc.

Granted it's legitimate in reflecting one facet of a quality Thoroughbred. There appears to be good stallions at both ends of the scale, and I doubt breeders will change their selection away from the aforementioned (F)'s.

Here's a snip from a Dan Liebman interview with John Gaines back in 2005, that though dated (pre-California Fake surfaces) has some validity imo.

The Blood-Horse: Is the breed as sound today as it was 30 years ago?
John Gaines: Conventional wisdom will tell you that the breed is not as sound today as it was 30 years ago, 50 years ago, and 75 years ago. Conventional wisdom is almost never right. A study from 1969-1999 reveals a surprisingly marginal increase of only 3% in the number of horses starting in races over a 30-year period. The more horses competing on the racetrack would appear to translate into more unsoundness in the breed as a whole;; however, this does not appear to be the case.

It is the condition of racing that determines the soundness of the breed. There is no such thing as an index of soundness and there is no agreed upon definition of what soundness means. The tracks are not much different and the methods of training are not much different compared to 30 years ago, although I think veterinary science is much more sophisticated than it was 30 years ago. Since the Thoroughbred does not reach his full physical maturity until 4 1/2 years of age, soundness is always going to be a major problem. The unreasonable physical demands that are placed upon young, immature, undeveloped horses are going to cause all kinds of breakdowns, injuries, physical trauma, and mental problems.

Conventional wisdom will tell you horses stay sounder if they run on the turf instead of the dirt. Although it is almost automatically assumed horses stay sounder in Europe than they do in America, I wonder if this is really true. When the Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing company developed artificial surfaces for both trotters and runners, the change in surface only created new unsoundness problems in different loci of the horses' anatomy. The question of soundness is primarily an immaturity and condition of racing issue rather than a genetical and inheritance issue. The overemphasis on the perform-ance of the 2- and 3-year-olds in a Darwinian sense purifies the breed, because only the fittest animals can survive the conditions of racing.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/ ... -own-words

[bdw0617]

all I know is that horses break down more in california than they do on any other major circuit, and I dont' even think it's that close. they broke down on dirt and they break down (more) on fake surfaces.

Now, understand I agree with you, but the topic is what can cali do about the stallions. I dont' think the stallion roster in cali is that bad. But something has to change if horses keep breaking down on both surfaces, or else it won't matter how much you pay if the horse won't run/last.

More AP Indy, get a good pleasant colony line sire or two in there for good measure, those horses are as tough as nails.

I think however alot of it is the mares that are being bred to these stallions than it is the stallions. I would imagine at least 1/3rd of the mares out there have no business being broodmares.

[karenkarenn]

I cant believe how much negative crap is coming from this thread. IF YOU DONT LIKE CAL THEN DONT GO TO RACE OR BRED!
This is horribe, I for one stand by California racing and if I were to even entertain the notion that there are alot more breakdown in Cal than the other circuits I would like to see PHYSICAL PROOF of ALL STATES.
Yes you hear me right! These are terrible comments!
If you dont like Cal then why waste the time writing your negativity in this thread.
I love High Brite and I love Bertrando, both Sires have proven their worth to me. And I believe John Gaines had more than one state in mind when he wrote those comments. I believe that he was talking about the ENTIRE thoroughbred industry.
You dont like this well too Bad! IM Standing up for the state! Someone has to!
Karen

[bdw0617]

I cant believe how much negative crap is coming from this thread. IF YOU DONT LIKE CAL THEN DONT GO TO RACE OR BRED!
This is horribe, I for one stand by California racing and if I were to even entertain the notion that there are alot more breakdown in Cal than the other circuits I would like to see PHYSICAL PROOF of ALL STATES.
Yes you hear me right! These are terrible comments!
If you dont like Cal then why waste the time writing your negativity in this thread.
I love High Brite and I love Bertrando, both Sires have proven their worth to me. And I believe John Gaines had more than one state in mind when he wrote those comments. I believe that he was talking about the ENTIRE thoroughbred industry.
You dont like this well too Bad! IM Standing up for the state! Someone has to!
Karen

LOL, considering the circuit is down 13% from last year, purses are being cut left and right, and there are more 5 horse fields than ever, jockies are leaving for greener pastures, I think they took you up on your offer.

[karenkarenn]

Really, I need evidence that Cal is one the worst states and the stats for the other states that race. Physical evidence, tangible, nothing like assumptions will prove anything.

Oh and is that why there are still other states runners coming to compete in Ca? If it was so bad why do they come!

Five horse field, WHERE? In your head, not Santa Anita maybe in the fair meets, thats prob were your getting your stats.
And what Turf Paradise doesnt have issues??! Yeah I gues when you wake up and see that it not just about breeding that makes a horse weak and I GUESS if you totally dont see the TRAINING aspect, I GUESS I might see your point... IN another century... OR two....

13% OMG BOTHER ME WHEN IT DROPS BELOW 50%.. 13% what a Joke....
LOL

[zinn21]

I would like to see more stakes horses and fewer unraced/lightly race well bred stallions in California.

Regarding the California soundness issue-I think soundness has more to do with the economics and medications used to mask unsoundness than it does with the breed or type of surface. I am generally mortified to see so many sore horses attempting to gallop virtually every time I go see my horses train in the morning. I can only attribute this to either terrible horsemanship or economics and I hang my hat on the latter at this point..

[fastappy]

John Gaines' observations were prophetic in regard to 3M's artificial surface simply eliminating injuries in one area, but having injuries re-surface in previous less common areas of the race horse. This seems to parallel the current crisis with Thoroughbred running on some of the fake surfaces today, both east & west.

Not meant to get off the subject!