Would you breed to this boy for racing prospects?

reneemg · Postby **reneemg** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:03 am

His first foal will be on the ground in a month or so but was bred for hunter/jumper. I'm curious as to whether or not it would be worthwhile to breed him for racing prospects? Why or why not? Is there any other information you would need to know to base a decision? You opinions are greatly appreciated!

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/elbader

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/6091/dscn3560va2.jpg

springboro · Postby **springboro** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:10 am

First off, if you're asking this board, you better use the right database and not that crap ALL BREED one. Use this link
http://www.pedigreequery.com/elbader

that said, it's a turf pedigree and not especially commercial. I can see him being bred with hunters/eventers/ and timber type horses. The fact that he didn't have any stakes races hurts him too. His dam is a minor stakes horse. Cute pic... he'd have a lot of appeal to pony breeders.

I happen to like this pedigree, but only if I were interested in breeding to race. This ain't gonna sell at Keeneland.

Sysonby · Postby **Sysonby** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:13 am

I'm a big believer that if you are going to breed to race, you breed to serious racing talent. Stallions are a dime a dozen compared to mares and he seems a little light in the racing department. Personally I wouldn't use him to create future racehorses.

springboro · Postby **springboro** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:35 am

so I got curious and had to pull a report of his races. As a two year old he ran 3rd to Sligo Bay's 2nd in a race, and was dead last in his only stakes race, the Group One Aga Khans Studs National S.

He is nicely bred but was running as a cheap claimer the last part of his career. He could have been claimed for $2,500 at one point.

Not really a ringing endorsement for stud of future race horses. Interesting to have a son of Machiavellian so close and inexpensive, but not a good enough case to breed to him.

LB · Postby LB » Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:04 am

Sysonby wrote:I'm a big believer that if you are going to breed to race, you breed to serious racing talent. Stallions are a dime a dozen compared to mares and he seems a little light in the racing department. Personally I wouldn't use him to create future racehorses.

I totally agree. He looks cute in his picture though.

By the way, his PQ race record is incorrect. It should read: 46-5-4-10 $95, 171.

Roger · Postby **Roger** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:39 pm

Texas is the home of all unraced Storm Cats and every now and then we get a runner. This boy has a race record and it kind of tells us that he can throw winners on the right circuit. If I were to stand him, I would want to try and find mares that had a little more class than he seems to have had. He ran pretty well in Europe early.

ak1 · Postby **ak1** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:48 pm

The fact that he is standing in PA seems like the best possible match. You should be able to market him to the hunter, eventer, steeplechase/timber, pony and the occasional breed to race client. All exist in the Mid-Atlantic.

And given the prices at the Timonium sales, it is possible to pick up a nicely bred mare should you want to take a shot at a breed to race foal with him. The PA bred incentives certainly make that an interesting proposition.

Good luck, he is a nice looking horse.

springboro · Postby **springboro** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:19 pm

Critisicm, a 5-year-old daughter of Machiavellian just won the Grade III turf The Very One today.

To the owner of this stallion, you could certainly mention his breeding in any ads. At $750 and being in PA, you might have some takers.

also, I should mention that Elbader's dam produced six stakes horses, three of the group placed.

MOON DROP (f. by Dominion), won 3 races and £15,030 including Remembrance Day EBF Stakes, Doncaster, L.; dam of winners.

Moon King (IRE), 3 races at 2 and 3 years, placed second in Coventry Stakes, Royal Ascot, Gr.3 and third in Gimcrack Stakes, York, Gr.2.

Abraham Lincoln (IRE), 2 races at 3 years, 2007 and £36,824 and placed 3
times including second in Greenlands Stakes, Curragh, Gr.3.

Devil Moon (IRE), 1 race at 2, third in Vintage Stakes, Goodwood, Gr.2.

South Dakota (IRE), 1 race at 2, 2007, second in Railway S., Curragh, Gr.2.

Dancing Drop (GB), 2 races at 2, second in October Stakes, Ascot, L.; dam of JEWEL IN THE SAND (IRE), won Cherry Hinton Stakes, Newmarket,
Gr.2, DAVIGNON (GB), won Scherping Rennen, Baden-Baden, L.

Mithl Al Hawa (GB), 1 race at 2 years, placed second in Charlotte Stakes,
Newmarket, L.; grandam of SMOKEY STORM (GB), 2 races at 2 years,
2008 and £20,619 including Woodcote Stakes, Epsom Downs, L.

Nanty (IRE), unraced; dam of TURNING FOR HOME (FR), 2 races at 3 years,
2008 in France and in Germany and £29,118 including Dalmayr Coupe Lukull
Riemer Stuten-Meile, Munich, L.

Cryptic Ninja · Postby **Cryptic Ninja** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:15 pm

[quote="Sysonby"]I'm a big believer that if you are going to breed to race, you breed to serious racing talent. Stallions are a dime a dozen compared to mares and he seems a little light in the racing department. Personally I wouldn't use him to create future racehorses.[/quote]

There are plenty of good stallions out there that have poor race records. If a stallion has has a decent female family line, they are worth a shot.

reneemg · Postby **reneemg** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:57 am

Thank you all for your opinions and advice. His purpose is to be a hunter sire but of course my mind went wandering and I wanted your advice to see if I was seriously getting in over my head. I'm not too bad at sporthorse pedigrees but when it comes to actual racing talent there is a lot I need to learn. Thank you all again!

reneemg · Postby **reneemg** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:00 am

springboro wrote:First off, if you're asking this board, you better use the right database and not that crap ALL BREED one. Use this link
http://www.pedigreequery.com/elbader

You're absolutely right! I have given other people crap for doing the same thing I just did.

I apologize.

Sysonby · Postby **Sysonby** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:19 am

Cryptic Ninja wrote:

There are plenty of good stallions out there that have poor race records. If a stallion has has a decent female family line, they are worth a shot.

I guess it all depends on what is considered "poor race records" and "worth a shot". Cee's Tizzy for example was a very capable miler in allowance company as I recall at Del Mar although he was only SP overall. Tribal Rule won an allowance race at Del Mar by 5 in 1:09 even though he never won a stake. Danzig looked like a superstar in all of his races but never won a stake. I suppose all of them would look like they had "poor" race records relative to graded SWs and Eclipse Award winners but actually they did show real talent they could and did pass on.

But a stallion running mainly in claiming races in the States? Personally I'd pass especially when I'd consider that "shot" was probably going to cost about $20,000 to get the baby to the races. That's not to say lightning can't strike but there's just better options out there.

LB · Postby LB » Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:21 am

Cryptic Ninja wrote:There are plenty of good stallions out there that have poor race records. If a stallion has has a decent female family line, they are worth a shot.

There are many things in life that are worth a shot. Most of them don't cost near as much as trying to prove a stallion whose chances for achieving success in the breeding shed seem limited. If the owner of this stallion wishes to devote the years and the hundreds of thousands of dollars it will take to buy mares, get foals on the ground, raise them, put them in training, and then hopefully watch them do well at the track, that's certainly his preogative--but one would not expect other breeders and mare owners to throw their money after his and help him in his quest.

Roger · Postby **Roger** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:00 am

This thread is like most threads judging the worth of a given horse. We have those of you who are blessed by being able to breed to the better horses in hopes of hitting a grand slam and then there are those like me who are hoping to get a good sound race horse that is competive in our region. We all hope to hit the grandslam, but some of us are still working our way up the food chain. Good thread and a lot of excellent advice has been presented.

Roger · Postby **Roger** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:07 am

A long time ago, I read a study that considered the class of stallions. This was back when graded stakes were just getting grades. The study concluded that with exceptions, if you wanted a Grade I horse, you bred to a Grade I winner and on down the line. The old breed the best to the best idea was proven again. You improved your chances of getting a Grade I horse when your stallion and mare were Grade I winners. The study looked at young un-proven stock. One of the Madden's once said something like, "Once a horse has proven himself useless, his great relatives don't mean much" A whole new thread