how do you feel about stallions that shuttle somewhere in the off season? Does that make you look at a stallion any differently?
I remember reading the book STUD and the claiborne guy was pretty big on not over using his stallions. the exact verbage I do not remember but he felt that if you did not overbreed a horse it gave you a better chance to get a good foal.
also, is shuttling a sign that things aren't working out?
stallions that shuttle
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bdw0617
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stallions that shuttle
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Re: stallions that shuttle
bdw0617 wrote:
also, is shuttling a sign that things aren't working out?
I would argue the reverse.
Re: stallions that shuttle
bdw0617 wrote:I remember reading the book STUD and the claiborne guy was pretty big on not over using his stallions. the exact verbage I do not remember but he felt that if you did not overbreed a horse it gave you a better chance to get a good foal.
An understanding of basic biology would refute that belief pretty quickly.
There are several good reasons for not overbreeding stallions but because they will produce better foals if you don't isn't one of them.
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bdw0617
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so what are the good reasons (seriously) for not overbreeding? very curious.
If you were looking at a horse at say, claiborne, say War Front.. and you were looking at a stallion at coolmore, say Scat Daddy... and you thought them even, would hte amount of breeding they do be a factor in your decision
If you were looking at a horse at say, claiborne, say War Front.. and you were looking at a stallion at coolmore, say Scat Daddy... and you thought them even, would hte amount of breeding they do be a factor in your decision
"When the solution is simple, God is answering.”
- Einstein
- Einstein
bdw0617 wrote:
If you were looking at a horse at say, claiborne, say War Front.. and you were looking at a stallion at coolmore, say Scat Daddy... and you thought them even, would hte amount of breeding they do be a factor in your decision
If I were breeding to race, I'd likely be paying more attention to fertility (mares covered/live foals). If I were breeding to sell, I'd be paying more attention to mares bred (that will likely be my competition come sales time...so the fewer the better - but this only after confirming fertility as above).
There's no good way that I know of to guarantee a good cover (i.e. you're not the third mare of the day) if you're going to a commercial stallion...
bdw0617 wrote:If you were looking at a horse at say, claiborne, say War Front.. and you were looking at a stallion at coolmore, say Scat Daddy... and you thought them even, would hte amount of breeding they do be a factor in your decision
As a mare owner, my thought processes about the size of a stallion's book would look something like this:
Stallion with a big book:
Pluses:
I can probably get in.
More offspring can equal more winners on the track (better for my prospective foal from a sales point of view)
Minuses:
What if I have trouble with scheduling when my mare needs to be bred?
What if my foal is one of dozens by that sire at the sale?
What if my mare is the 4th mare he's bred to that day and he's too tired to care?
Stallion with a small book:
Pluses:
Chances are, he'll be a more willing breeder.
The market won't be flooded with them
My mare will probably be able to be bred when she's ready
Minuses:
My mare probably won't get in.
Smaller books mean fewer offspring and this is a numbers game
Bear in mind some of those are commercial considerations--because racing-wise I don't think how many mares a stallion breeds has anything to do with the quality of the offspring he might produce with my specific mare.
If I was a stallion owner, rather than a mare owner, I'd have a whole other set of reasons why I think smaller books--or at least not huge books--are better for the overall general health of the horse.
Good list, LB.
I would actually add that larger books, especially one of quality, can play into a breeder's hand if they want to breed to a stallion in his 2nd and 3rd crop.
If you have the utmost faith in a young stallion, you can time your foal's availability at a sale to coincide with the (suspected) successes of his offspring on the track. Risky but can be very rewarding, especially with a mid-level to lower-level fee (think Tapit).
As far as the original question, the majority of gripes you hear about shuttling stallions come from people who don't have a lot invested into the industry.
While there are some physical repercussions to overbreeding a stallion, few farms are going to burn a good stallion out quickly, rather than milk him over time. And wild stallions, if given the opportunity, will breed more frequently than thoroughbred stallions do.
It's also worth noting, as a breeder, that if a stallion is welcomed graciously in two continents and is successful in both, that can only broaden the interest in the prospective foal, even if few S.H. buyers frequent NH sales.
Though many ignore yearling sales, there's a very real market for stallion prospects and open broodmares for other locales.
I would actually add that larger books, especially one of quality, can play into a breeder's hand if they want to breed to a stallion in his 2nd and 3rd crop.
If you have the utmost faith in a young stallion, you can time your foal's availability at a sale to coincide with the (suspected) successes of his offspring on the track. Risky but can be very rewarding, especially with a mid-level to lower-level fee (think Tapit).
As far as the original question, the majority of gripes you hear about shuttling stallions come from people who don't have a lot invested into the industry.
While there are some physical repercussions to overbreeding a stallion, few farms are going to burn a good stallion out quickly, rather than milk him over time. And wild stallions, if given the opportunity, will breed more frequently than thoroughbred stallions do.
It's also worth noting, as a breeder, that if a stallion is welcomed graciously in two continents and is successful in both, that can only broaden the interest in the prospective foal, even if few S.H. buyers frequent NH sales.
Though many ignore yearling sales, there's a very real market for stallion prospects and open broodmares for other locales.
I like your list LB. I have been attending sales this spring and one thing I really dislike is stallions with large books who have alot of foals in one sale. I think you are doing a disservice to the stallion to have too many of his foals thrown into one sale. I think this is true with regional stallions as well. What are people thinking when they enter foal #20 by the same stallion into the sale? Also if the foals do not run well they become a dime a dozen if there are 200-300 of them at racing age. I still think books should be limited to 40-60 but my daughter who works at a breeding farm thinks 80-100 is perfect. I like stallions who shuttle. It shows diversity that there is a belief that the resulting foals will be able to compete on different surfaces/different tracks. But again 200+ foals a year is crazy and I think should devalue the stallion, although I know that is not the case.
IcouldbeU wrote:I have been attending sales this spring and one thing I really dislike is stallions with large books who have alot of foals in one sale. I think you are doing a disservice to the stallion to have too many of his foals thrown into one sale. I think this is true with regional stallions as well. What are people thinking when they enter foal #20 by the same stallion into the sale?
They're thinking that they bred the foal with the intention of selling it and that they have no control over how many other people choose to do the same. They are also hoping that, of those by the same sire, theirs is one of the best offered on the day.
Also if the foals do not run well they become a dime a dozen if there are 200-300 of them at racing age. I still think books should be limited to 40-60 but my daughter who works at a breeding farm thinks 80-100 is perfect. I like stallions who shuttle. It shows diversity that there is a belief that the resulting foals will be able to compete on different surfaces/different tracks. But again 200+ foals a year is crazy and I think should devalue the stallion, although I know that is not the case.
Bear in mind that if books were limited to 40-60 mares, most small breeders would be put out of business and only the mega-farms would survive. In the mid-twentieth century, when books that size were the norm, most spots went to mares owned by the stallion's farm. If any were left after that, a mare owner would need to be a personal friend of the stallion owner to even have a chance of getting in the book.
As a mare owner, if I couldn't get to the majority of the stallions I wanted to breed to, I wouldn't breed my good mares to lesser quality stallions. I'd sell them and get out of the game.