Pedigree Query

I'm confused. I was looking at the Smarty Jones page on Stallion Register. http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-regi ... nglesearch They (Lanes End I suppose) say "G1 filly in first crop!" but all he has is a G1 placing from Be Smart right? Aren't they fudging the description a bit? Anybody could run a filly IN a G1 and placing in a G1 is usually more clearly indicated than that. I went to their website to see if he had one recently that just didn't get updated. Here's what it said, unedited:

"In 2008, SMARTY JONES has sired six winners and three placed, earning $366,006 through late October, including Be Smart-G12yo. "

True a G1 placing in the Alcibiades is nothing to sneeze at but it's not a win, and it makes it sound like a win. I'm sure I'm fussing too much about clarity but I wanted to see how his crop was doing, and that makes me think he's doing better than he is. I figured I'd have heard about it if he got a G1 winner. I thought maybe it was group 1 instead or something but I dunno how all his international runners are doing. Is it a filly in Japan or something? It's not in the database if he got one that way.

They're talking about the G.1 placing.

All these stallion ads love to be creative in their language (and Three Chimney's is one of the most aggressive).

Like they'll say "five stakes horses in his first crop" and they might be talking about five horses who ran third in stakes where some people might read that and think five stakes WINNERS.

It gets really fun when they start using ratios and percentages.

"40% stakes horses from starters" could mean the horse has only four starters and one of them might have placed third in some highly restricted stake (like one only open to graduates of some small regional sale) on a minor circuit. But it sounds good.

Well technically she is a G1 filly, in that she placed in the Alcibiades. As Hold Your Peace noted, common usage in TB advertising gives credit to "stakes horses" in addition to "stakes winners". It's just another statistic that breeders can feel free to weight as heavily as they wish when making their breeding decisions.

And let's face it, Three Chimneys HAS to get creative with Smarty, since his only stakes winner came in a Gr. 3 in Puerto Rico last year. Notice they've recently used "WINNING AROUND THE WORLD!" to describe his progeny for the strip ad on the Blood-Horse web site, too. Sure they're winning in Puerto Rico, Japan, etc. - just not in stakes. "A Grade 1 filly in his first crop" sures makes it seem like he's a better sire than he actually is. I used to write stallion ads many moons ago, and the key is to take whatever bit of positive news you can get and run with it, without distorting it too much, unless you're writing an ad for Smart Strike or
A. P. Indy or another top stud. Those ads write themselves.

Bohemia - I agree. I am not a fan of SJ in the breeding shed...although I was on the racetrack. I have started to notice though that his progeny have picked it up a notch in the last few months. Although his stakes numbers are dismal, I kind of get the feeling that there is at least some hope on the horizon for those that have invested in him, either via share or season....

hi ct2346

ct2346 wrote: ... I am not a fan of (Smarty Jones) in the breeding shed...although I was on the racetrack. I have started to notice though that his progeny have picked it up a notch in the last few months.

In the case of Smarty Jones, whose initial advertised stud fee was $100k, whose initial share price was set at $650k per, and whose first crop is now 3-year-olds...picking it up a notch is likely not good enough to ignite enthusiasm, or instill confidence.

ct2346 wrote:Although his stakes numbers are dismal, I kind of get the feeling that there is at least some hope on the horizon for those that have invested in him, either via share or season....

There's always hope...but at this moment in time I'd expect that the overwhelming majority of opinion (re Smarty Jones as a racehorse sire) might range from EXTREMELY disappointing (at best), to a FLOP-extraordinaire (at worst).

Smarty Jones is just not getting the job done...at least (to my way of thinking anyway) not in relation to the opportunities afforded him, and the expectations fueled by those opportunities.

If Smarty Jones doesn't get things cookin' soon, he'll likely join the list of stallions that began their stud careers at Three Chimneys but disappointed (at best) or flopped (at worst).

Oh well.

Respectfully

No question that SJ has gotten off to a pretty slow start but everyone should have learned from Sky Mesa's first crop that it is premature to jump off a stallion after he has only had one full crop to run.

FOS I think it is pretty unfair to single out Three Chimneys when discussing stallions that have failed to make an impact at stud. Anyone can go back to a stallion register from 10 years ago and look at all the farms in Kentucky and see how many of the stallions at ALL of the farms are no longer in Kentucky. In the stallion business at every farm there is an overwhelming number of disappointments for every success.

They ALL do it. Look at this one for NOT FOR LOVE:
http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-regi ... nglesearch

It says "The Nation's Leading Sire
In North American Earnings In
2003, 2004, 2005 & 2006!
#1 in MD and #1 Outside KY in 07-08"

Dont they mean "The Nation's Leading Sire OUTSIDE OF KENTUCKY In North American Earnings In 2003, 2004, 2005 & 2006!"?

They DO: Here's form the website: "With progeny earnings of nearly $6 million for the year, he remained, for the sixth year in a row, the nation’s highest ranked stallion by North American earnings standing outside of Kentucky."

It's what's done.

Coaltown wrote:No question that SJ has gotten off to a pretty slow start but everyone should have learned from Sky Mesa's first crop that it is premature to jump off a stallion after he has only had one full crop to run.

FOS I think it is pretty unfair to single out Three Chimneys when discussing stallions that have failed to make an impact at stud. Anyone can go back to a stallion register from 10 years ago and look at all the farms in Kentucky and see how many of the stallions at ALL of the farms are no longer in Kentucky. In the stallion business at every farm there is an overwhelming number of disappointments for every s
ucess.

yes but TC takes it to a whole new level of suckdom. War Chant, Smarty Jones/. if you had a hall of fame for the two biggest overp;riced busts at stud, the'd be on the first ballot

I guess it depends on what you consider a bust. War Chant is 6% SW from foals of racing age. Hard to call him a bust with what he puts on the racetrack. But if your only measure of success is having a high priced stud fee then I guess you have an arguement.

You are way off ragging on War Chant who is having a hell of a year. He has seven SW this year, many of them graded...he is in the top 40 sires in the country and he fee this year is only 15,000. It is one of the best values out there right now as far as I am concerned. He is not your typical "early" sire but he has a good shot at getting you a Saturday horse. I have one getting ready to run (at 3) and like him quite a bit.

His early fees may have been high, but based on where he is today, its a no brainer.

is this deju vu or did we have this convo about war chant already?


By Bust I mean starts off at a very high fee tht he is not where near capable of producing at. didn't he start off at 75k?

All 7 of his stakes winners in 2009 were either bred at $75,000 or $60,000 stud fee.

Many buyers and breeders were wanting the War Chants to be something they were not. He's a very good value at the moment and I think in time, will prove to be a 40k-50k stallion. He throws terrific looking animals.

ct2346 wrote:You are way off ragging on War Chant who is having a hell of a year. He has seven SW this year, many of them graded...he is in the top 40 sires in the country and he fee this year is only 15,000. It is one of the best values out there right now as far as I am concerned. He is not your typical "early" sire but he has a good shot at getting you a Saturday horse. I have one getting ready to run (at 3) and like him quite a bit.

His early fees may have been high, but based on where he is today, its a no brainer.

At the risk of continuing the hi-jack of this thread, 3C will most likely leave the early breeders high and dry. War Chant was 60K in 2006, 30K in 2007, 20K in 2008 and 15K in 2009. Hard to sell a sales yearling when the stud fee goes down 50%,33%, and 33% in the last 3 years. Look for the same drops on SJ in the next 3 years.