Pedigree Query

I was doing a little research and came across these stats for Bull Lea as a sire: 376 foals, 57 stakes winners, 4.37 AEI. It is really too bad that his male line hasn't carried on. Don't know if any of his daughters/granddaughters are in the pedigrees of many modern-day thoroughbreds, either.

Bohemia wrote:I was doing a little research and came across these stats for Bull Lea as a sire: 376 foals, 57 stakes winners, 4.37 AEI. It is really too bad that his male line hasn't carried on. Don't know if any of his daughters/granddaughters are in the pedigrees of many modern-day thoroughbreds, either.

It's often intrigued me that, like Alydar, he was a great sire but an awful sire of sires. And you'll note that Alydar is inbred to Bull Lea.

I've wondered what happened here myself. Bull Lea was a four-time leading broodmare sire too, yet you don't see his name nearly as often as one might expect given that level of success. Great broodmare sires often end up spreading their genes farther and deeper into the breed than do great sires of winners who are not great broodmare sires. It's not that Bull Lea has disappeared from modern pedigrees; it's just that he doesn't show up as often as one might expect.

I suspect if Bull Lea or Alydar had couple hundred more foals that one would have eventually clicked. After all if A.P. Indy was never born Seattle Slew would be about done right now as a sire line.

I wonder though if the SS line would have fared better had the industry not shifted entirely towards the pretty pony sales model yearling and instead did matches based on pedigrees.

Consolation prize: Well, dont forget Gate Dancer http://www.pedigreequery.com/gate+dancer

Thanks, Jorge! I almost did forget about him!

Gate Dancer was solid runner but not much as a sire. Interestingly though, a quick scan of his progeny shows that his best runners, earning over $200k, did it by running sound. 50 - 60 starts. Would be an interesting study in and of itself. Maybe he was not destined to be the sire of much that is brilliant, but the hard knocking type that is pretty much despised these days.

As the market turns upside down and if the purses stay up, there may yet be an opportunity for these types of lines.

jm

That's true, Joltman. What other sires today are noted for passing down soundness?

Bohemia, I have a relatively young mare (2000) whose third dam was by Bull Lea, and whose dam is bred 4x5 Bull Lea. Her pedigree is an intriguing close up of quite old bloodlines in such a young mare. Her name is Ground Queen. In the five years or so that I have had this mare she has never taken a lame step, and throws consistently well balanced, heavy boned foals, who ALL look like their sires

Bohemia wrote:...What other sires today are noted for passing down soundness?

I don't have one but think it would be great to have a weighted metric of soundness that combined earnings, races run, years raced, wins etc. It would be good if the stallion pages in the Stallion Directory and Register had stats avg # of starts/starter, months raced, etc. , but I don't know where to find them.

I think there is reason to believe that Quiet American and Gulch are among the stronger stallions today regarding soundness. Its a difficult calculation because a stallion only contributes (theoretically 50%). One would think that cheaper stallions are bred to cheaper mares, hence they wouldn't produce soundness, but actually some of the cheaper mares are the proverbial 'hard knockers' that don't have great speed but hang around - in a race, in a career and can earn some $ for their owners. On the other hand, the highest end stallions are probably rarely bred to mares that have raced a lot, as the best G1 winning mares (Zenyatta, RA,etc.) would typically not be raced much past 4yo and have highly prized bloodlines. Also, racing with the best, horses are subjected to the higher stresses of higher speeds for prolonged times. So these might be more likely to have the wheels fall off earlier. Also, sometimes breeders might be inclined to breed to a certain stallion based on a nick that produces a few brilliant horses but may, on a percentage basis, introduce unsoundness in a higher percentage of the foals. The same stallions, bred to other mares, my be just fine soundness wise.

An important question, probably addressed elsewhere on the board, but worth exploring.

jm

That is an interesting reply, Joltman, and got me thinking about some people I know whose broodmare band is comprised primarily of the "hard-knocking" types ... not stylish or fancy bloodlines, but mares who made 50+ starts and earned their purse money the hard way. They have had incredible success breeding these mares to regional stallions that stand for $7,500 and under.

There's the whole "breed to race" vs "commercial breeding" thing going on too. Hard knocking mares are not likely to be commercial, and are more likely to be breed to race the resulting offspring, rather than send a high priced yearling through the sales ring.

Gate Dancer's best chance?: http://www.pedigreequery.com/green+alligator