hi guys
Why not raise the stud fees of Fusaichi Pegasus and Giant's Causeway? After all...their three starters in the 2005 Ky Derby finished 8th, 14th and 19th.
Is it unreasonable to expect (among other things) that the Bandini (by Fusaichi Pegasus) connections will feed us so much spin...doubletalk...and such a well thought out fairytale, that by the time they get done, it will sound like (although he finished 19th of 20) Bandini won...or should have...or that he was on his death-bed and it's a miracle how well he ran?
Maybe we should all get together and put on a bake sale to help out.
Respectfully
Should FusaichiPegasus & Giant'sCauseway stud fees go up
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
smirk 
Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if Giant's Causeway's goes up a hair (he's at $100k right now, right? They may go to $125k) depending on what that 2k Guineas winner of his does later in the year.
As for Bandini ... I'm still waiting for conformation that he broke down and is about to be retired.
And on that note .. I know I'm going to get slammed for being so petty, but can I just say how delighted I am that Frankel's charge finished dead last?
Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if Giant's Causeway's goes up a hair (he's at $100k right now, right? They may go to $125k) depending on what that 2k Guineas winner of his does later in the year.
As for Bandini ... I'm still waiting for conformation that he broke down and is about to be retired.
And on that note .. I know I'm going to get slammed for being so petty, but can I just say how delighted I am that Frankel's charge finished dead last?
Sam he's at 200k I reckon he'll be going up sharply next season as his 3 best Footsteps, Maids' and then Shamardal have a lot of Gr.1 s' to contest for the rest of the year- Maids' was only making her first start of the season!
However- I don't and can't figure out how spectacular turf horses will make the US market want him- why don't they just fly him back to IRE???
On a side note has MY TYPHOON raced again - going to soon???
However- I don't and can't figure out how spectacular turf horses will make the US market want him- why don't they just fly him back to IRE???
On a side note has MY TYPHOON raced again - going to soon???
Ruffian wrote:Sam he's at 200k I reckon he'll be going up sharply next season as his 3 best Footsteps, Maids' and then Shamardal have a lot of Gr.1 s' to contest for the rest of the year- Maids' was only making her first start of the season!
Now why was I thinking he was only at $100k ... and I've got it in my mind that FUPig is at $125k .. but that's likely wrong too. shrug If he's already at $200k, then no, I don't see his fee going up regardless of what Footsteps and Co. do.Ruffian wrote:However- I don't and can't figure out how spectacular turf horses will make the US market want him- why don't they just fly him back to IRE?
Good point. I liked that they were willing to give him a shot stateside (I know people are still looking for the Heir Apparent to Storm Cat and I was kind of hoping he'd be it), but it's beginning to look like he may be a better turf sire which won't win him many points over here. Noble Causeway needs to step up in a big way or you may get your wish and the horse winds up in IRE.
Re: Should FusaichiPegasus & Giant'sCauseway stud fees g
FOS wrote:Maybe we should all get together and put on a bake sale to help out.
I happen to really like both those stallions and even I think their current stud fees are ridiculous. I also think the fact that their fees are re-adjusted every few months is equally ludicrous. If I had 150K to spend (and the appropriate mare), I wouldn't even look at those two. I'd make a beeline to Mill Ridge and breed to Gone West.
Coolmore is in kind of a catch 22 with Giant's Causeway. After the recent success of his offspring in the 2,000 and 1,000 Guineas, they really ought to ship him back to Ireland. Of course very few people over there will spend 200K to breed to him.
hi brogers
You ask "Is there anything wrong if Giant's Causeway does end up like say Kingmambo?"
I say...absolutely not.
Kingmambo is (to a large degree) a horse that many international turf-racing aficionados use...including the Maktoum bros (maybe 15-20 mares intended for him this year alone). For the most part, it's probably safe to say that turf is Kingmambo's realm (although he did sire a top dirt horse in champion older male Lemon Drop Kid)...and I'm not so sure that isn't the direction that Giant's Causeway (as a sire) is going...turf...turf...and more turf...with an occasional dirt horse (probably from a mare with strong dirt connections).
I believe it's fair to say that Ashford/Coolmore would love to see their wonderful champion Giant's Causeway succeed as a consistent sire of top horses on the North American dirt surfaces...but he is clearly having some difficulty accomplishing that (at least so far). And arguably it's not for lack of a huge quantity of quality mares...enormous foal crops and exceptional opportunities.
As a matter of interest...Kingmambo has been sidelined much of this breeding season...and it wouldn't surprise me if GC has benefitted from that and received a number of the mares that were originally earmarked for Kingmambo.
Respectfully
You ask "Is there anything wrong if Giant's Causeway does end up like say Kingmambo?"
I say...absolutely not.
Kingmambo is (to a large degree) a horse that many international turf-racing aficionados use...including the Maktoum bros (maybe 15-20 mares intended for him this year alone). For the most part, it's probably safe to say that turf is Kingmambo's realm (although he did sire a top dirt horse in champion older male Lemon Drop Kid)...and I'm not so sure that isn't the direction that Giant's Causeway (as a sire) is going...turf...turf...and more turf...with an occasional dirt horse (probably from a mare with strong dirt connections).
I believe it's fair to say that Ashford/Coolmore would love to see their wonderful champion Giant's Causeway succeed as a consistent sire of top horses on the North American dirt surfaces...but he is clearly having some difficulty accomplishing that (at least so far). And arguably it's not for lack of a huge quantity of quality mares...enormous foal crops and exceptional opportunities.
As a matter of interest...Kingmambo has been sidelined much of this breeding season...and it wouldn't surprise me if GC has benefitted from that and received a number of the mares that were originally earmarked for Kingmambo.
Respectfully
austique wrote:Brogers is correct. Giant's Causeway can stay here despite being a turf sire and carve out a spectacular career much like Kingmambo and Riverman before him.
Of course he can stay here and be a wonderful turf sire (if that's what he turns out to be). But the big difference between Giant's Causeway and Kingmambo is the difference between the stallion management styles of Coolmore and Lane's End.
Coolmore is looking to breed GC to 200 mares a year (northern hemisphere) at a current stud fee of 200K. If it turns out that his offspring run markedly better on grass, with those parameters I think they're going to have a hard time keeping his book full in Kentucky.
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chicago78
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I think Giant's Causeway deserves a little more time before declaring him completely a turf sire. This years 3 year olds were all covered in Europe, so it's only natural that he has gotten mainly turf horses. Giant's Causeway ran all but one race on turf, but it's fair to say he excelled on both surfaces, as his dirt attempt was a second in the BC Classic. His mother, Mariah's Storm, was a big time filly on the dirt, though she was bred more for grass. With Rahy (by Blushing Groom) and Roberto as her sire and broodmare sire, and Storm Cat as Giant's Causeway's sire, there were a ton proven crosses for European breeders looking at turf racing.
I think Noble Causeway is a good horse, and had an awful trip in the Derby. If he stays healthy, I would think he can win a grade 1 on the dirt. Before the derby, his only time worse than second was in his debut, going a mile on the grass at Belmont. He's out of Seeking the Gold mare, which is closer to the type of mares he'll get in this country than he covered in Europe.
I think Noble Causeway is a good horse, and had an awful trip in the Derby. If he stays healthy, I would think he can win a grade 1 on the dirt. Before the derby, his only time worse than second was in his debut, going a mile on the grass at Belmont. He's out of Seeking the Gold mare, which is closer to the type of mares he'll get in this country than he covered in Europe.
I wasn't saying he shouldn't or can't sire turf horses- but surely he should stand where the ground he walks on will be worshipped ala Sadlers Wells rather than Coolmore spinning and spinning trying to get the 200 mares to him a year... However I do understand that this first crop was covered in Ire, but what are this years' 2yos doing? This time last year they were already showing some talent, at least at the training centers!
AGAIN My Typhoon anyone???
AGAIN My Typhoon anyone???
Chicago78,
Just to add to your point- the difference in mares Giant's Causeway received between his first European and first North American crop is astounding. His first crop was dominated by mares from European turf/stamina influences, including daughters of Darshaan (3 mares), High Estate (2), Irish River (5), Kris (3), Lear Fan (3), Nashwan (2), Nureyev (6), Rainbow Quest (2), Riverman (2), Sadler's Wells (5), Selkirk (2), Sumuru (2), etc. While many of these broodmare sires are still represented in his 2003 crop, the mares he received are by and large much more typically American, dirt-oriented, or speedy: Alydar (3), Apalachee (20), A.P. Indy (5), Carson City (2), Deputy Minister (3), Fappiano (3), many more Seeking the Gold and Mr. Prospector mares.
Of his European-bred first crop, only 20 or so have run in the United States. Of these US runners, only the following have, according to my records, raced even once on dirt:
1. Angliana (W on dirt; dam Pratella (Jade Hunter), GSW on turf),
2. Boulder Tiger (out of a Nureyev mare),
3. Cause He's Irish (dam Irish Linnet (Seattle Song), turf SW),
4. Complicated (dam Humble Eight (Seattle Battle) GSW on dirt),
5. Finn Maccunaill (dam Fontemar (Babor) raced in Argentina),
6. Giant Wrecker (W on dirt; dam Homewrecker (Buckaroo), dam of some high class dirt horses),
7. Maillol (dam Regina Maria (Unbridled) unraced 1/2 to Tejano Run),
8. Matt's a Giant (dam Anna Sterz (Danzig),
9. Noble Causeway (W;G1SP; dam Mimi's Golden Girl (Seeking the Gold),
10. Jewel in the Night ((dam Jeweled Lady (General Meeting) full sister to Excellent Meeting), and
11. Key Causeway (dam Key Hunter (Jade Hunter) was 3rd in the Coaching Club American Oaks).
The remaining American Giant's Causeways have raced exclusively on the grass:
1. Ballymena (dam Lypink (Lyphard) listed SW in France)
2. Charm the Giant (dam Olympic Charmer (Olympio) was a GSW on the dirt); this filly broke her maiden at Hollywood quite nicely yesterday,
3. Dancingintheaisles (dam Amizette (Forty Niner)),
4. Giant Hope (dam Hopespringsforever (Mr. Prospector), making him half or 3/4 to some nice dirt horses in Union City etc),
5. Higher Cause (dam Antique Pearl (Darshaan)),
6. Morning Raider (dam Antiques (Unbridled)),
7. My Typhoon (W on turf; dam Arc winner Urban Sea (Miswaki),
8. Stormy Heaven (dam Wild Heaven (Darshaan) listed turf SW),
9. Zurich (dam Utr (Mr. Prospector); dam 1/2 to turf horse Bonnard), and
10. Anura (dam Shastri (Alleged).
(Two other European based GC fillies have both tried their luck one time in US dirt stakes races: Mona Lisa (out of Colorsnap (Shirley Heights)) and Natalie Jane (out of Kirk (Selkirk)).
As only 11 out of 21 of the Giant's Causeways who are based in the US have even run on dirt, this idea that they have had a million dirt opportunities is not quite fair. It will be very interesting to see how his more dirt bred 2 year olds do. The "dirt jury" is still way, way out, in my mind.
Just to add to your point- the difference in mares Giant's Causeway received between his first European and first North American crop is astounding. His first crop was dominated by mares from European turf/stamina influences, including daughters of Darshaan (3 mares), High Estate (2), Irish River (5), Kris (3), Lear Fan (3), Nashwan (2), Nureyev (6), Rainbow Quest (2), Riverman (2), Sadler's Wells (5), Selkirk (2), Sumuru (2), etc. While many of these broodmare sires are still represented in his 2003 crop, the mares he received are by and large much more typically American, dirt-oriented, or speedy: Alydar (3), Apalachee (20), A.P. Indy (5), Carson City (2), Deputy Minister (3), Fappiano (3), many more Seeking the Gold and Mr. Prospector mares.
Of his European-bred first crop, only 20 or so have run in the United States. Of these US runners, only the following have, according to my records, raced even once on dirt:
1. Angliana (W on dirt; dam Pratella (Jade Hunter), GSW on turf),
2. Boulder Tiger (out of a Nureyev mare),
3. Cause He's Irish (dam Irish Linnet (Seattle Song), turf SW),
4. Complicated (dam Humble Eight (Seattle Battle) GSW on dirt),
5. Finn Maccunaill (dam Fontemar (Babor) raced in Argentina),
6. Giant Wrecker (W on dirt; dam Homewrecker (Buckaroo), dam of some high class dirt horses),
7. Maillol (dam Regina Maria (Unbridled) unraced 1/2 to Tejano Run),
8. Matt's a Giant (dam Anna Sterz (Danzig),
9. Noble Causeway (W;G1SP; dam Mimi's Golden Girl (Seeking the Gold),
10. Jewel in the Night ((dam Jeweled Lady (General Meeting) full sister to Excellent Meeting), and
11. Key Causeway (dam Key Hunter (Jade Hunter) was 3rd in the Coaching Club American Oaks).
The remaining American Giant's Causeways have raced exclusively on the grass:
1. Ballymena (dam Lypink (Lyphard) listed SW in France)
2. Charm the Giant (dam Olympic Charmer (Olympio) was a GSW on the dirt); this filly broke her maiden at Hollywood quite nicely yesterday,
3. Dancingintheaisles (dam Amizette (Forty Niner)),
4. Giant Hope (dam Hopespringsforever (Mr. Prospector), making him half or 3/4 to some nice dirt horses in Union City etc),
5. Higher Cause (dam Antique Pearl (Darshaan)),
6. Morning Raider (dam Antiques (Unbridled)),
7. My Typhoon (W on turf; dam Arc winner Urban Sea (Miswaki),
8. Stormy Heaven (dam Wild Heaven (Darshaan) listed turf SW),
9. Zurich (dam Utr (Mr. Prospector); dam 1/2 to turf horse Bonnard), and
10. Anura (dam Shastri (Alleged).
(Two other European based GC fillies have both tried their luck one time in US dirt stakes races: Mona Lisa (out of Colorsnap (Shirley Heights)) and Natalie Jane (out of Kirk (Selkirk)).
As only 11 out of 21 of the Giant's Causeways who are based in the US have even run on dirt, this idea that they have had a million dirt opportunities is not quite fair. It will be very interesting to see how his more dirt bred 2 year olds do. The "dirt jury" is still way, way out, in my mind.
LSB
You are completely correct. He won't get 200 mares being a straight turf sire in the U.S., but I think it's probable his foals will being able to do well enough on both surfaces (ala Kingmambo) to keep him relatively busy albeit they will probably have to lower his fee to fill the book. I actually like GC alot but even if I had the funds I would find it hard to justify spending that much on a horse whose oldest foals are three.
You are completely correct. He won't get 200 mares being a straight turf sire in the U.S., but I think it's probable his foals will being able to do well enough on both surfaces (ala Kingmambo) to keep him relatively busy albeit they will probably have to lower his fee to fill the book. I actually like GC alot but even if I had the funds I would find it hard to justify spending that much on a horse whose oldest foals are three.