Stallions on oral testosterone supplementation

[TrueColours]

Do stallions need to be kept on supplementation forever? Does their sperm output or quality suffer at all if they are NOT on it? Does it affect their sperm if they ARE on it?

How many stallions exactly NEED testosterone supplementation to do their jobs and would this be a turn off for Mare Owners if they knew the only way the stallion could do his job was with the help of testosterone supplementation?

I guess for me - I have never dealt with a stallion with this problem before.
Spot Pocket, Sato and now Guaranteed Gold had / have wonderful libido's and work ethics and were / are VERY enthusiastic about their jobs and very professional in their outlooks. Even my 2 year old colt, the first time we took him for phantom training, he was up and collected in a few minutes time and he was also a VERY avid pupil!

How common a problem IS this and as a Mare Owner - would you breed to a stallion that required this supplementation?

Thanks!

[Gerry]

I am interested in this topic as well. I know of 2 stallions that entered stud this year who have yet to breed a mare. Both raced for a # of years and I was thinking that maybe they are conditioned at the track not to show interest in mares for fear of being reprimanded? Or maybe its the drugs that they run on? Both of these stallions are on no testerone supplements but as the breeding season is going on they both are becoming great teasers but have yet to mount a mare. Did the stallion that you are mentioning race? for how many years? This is the first year I have ever heard of this type of problem....it was always mares coming off the track who didnt cycle or get infoal.

[TrueColours]

I imagine this is not a topic that is well discussed though Gerry ... cant imagine too many stallions owners advertising this fact - that their stallions has little to *NO* interest in mares or breeding.

Interesting though how many stallions do seem to have this problem in one form or another ...

[Ruffian]

Both of my boys are absolutely *studs* they whistle all day to the ladies - we have a 2yo colt on the farm who thinks he is the man, and a Yearling but he is in major 'No your not' training right now-

The one thing is Stage did receive a kick (just a bad mare) and he went off didn't want to actually jump up- but was happy with everything else - but all it took was one of our good mares (the type that will stand all day waiting) and he was back to it, and after that he has been a LOT more .... whats the word.... he really makes sure fully doesn't just leap and pray, but considering it was only his 3rd mare ever that gave him the boot I suppose he probably was still in the learning phase and would have come on leaps and bounds anyway.

And the other boy well- put it this way, he is a real 'get the job done, no matter what' type of guy- which is great for the maidens (bouncing that is )

I would be interested to know if the supplement helps anything or makes things worse, as you never know if you ever might need it !!! (when the boys aren't so young and agile)

[Gerry]

Until this year, I had never heard of a stallion that wasnt at all interested. All my stallions have been alittle too studdish at times and my yearlings keep asking me when their breeding season starts.

I have worked with 1st year studs in the past and never had this problem. Not a Corgi was supposed to be tested only on a 24yr old mare for his 1st mare since we knew she wouldnt kill him and he now has a gorgeous yearling filly out of her. The outcome of his 1 jump test LOL

the 2 stallions I have mentioned are both older, having raced for 3 or 4 years been off the track since last fall and earlier in the season showed absolutely no interest in mares but now they are teasing them. The vet has said that they will come around in time but how long do you wait? And how many farms are going to?

I am tired this morning...who was the horse in Japan (I think) that was having issues and preferred geldings and only certain colored mares? I think it was a few years ago....anyone know how he is doing now?

Would be very interested in knowing if the supplements are working so I can pass the information on.

[madelyn]

There was good ol' Seattle Slew, it took time for them to figure out he needed a foal standing there (a filly? was he a pedophile?)... my two boys take their work very seriously... Rocky (Rocking Trick) can cover a mare in two minutes flat, and another mare five minutes after that... both are Very Fertile. But I have a friend that has a stallion from the racetrack and they tried to get him on a mare for fifteen months before he finally covered one.. now they are waiting to see if he was shooting blanks. I think if you have a Seattle Slew it's well worth figuring out.. if you have a horse like Our Luther, give it up and move on....

[LSB]

Gerry the horse you're thinking of is War Emblem, and I believe he breeds some mares each year, though not as full a book as his owners would like. Apparently he's allowed to pick and choose who he wants to breed and who he doesn't.

Actually this problem comes up quite often. Many stallions newly off the track need to be coaxed into showing an interest in breeding--due to both things mentioned above: that such behavior has previously been banned and that the drugs they've been on have led to lower testosterone production.

Good stallion managers account for this and work the horses through it. Every year there are 2 or 3 that are slow to get started--and much rejoicing all around when they finally figure things out.

[marg]

When we were in Kentucky, a few years ago they were having trouble getting Star de Naskra interested in the ladies----could have been his age----but they moved him as close as they could to the breeding shed so he could see the action.I do not know if it worked or if they had him on medication.Houston and Corporate Report had their problems also.
We just got a stallion who has been at the track for sometime and he is still shy about dropping in front of us.We put him in a paddock with one of our very willing young ladies for a couple of days and we are going to have her ultra-sounded to see if any thing happened.He is really starting to talk to the girls now and we tell him he is a good boy every time he does.He also is starting to drop but as soon as we put a lead on him ,he stops.Time will tell!Marg.

[Ruffian]

There was good ol' Seattle Slew, it took time for them to figure out he needed a foal standing there (a filly? was he a pedophile?)....

[K~2]

Supplemental testosterone will affect sperm output and quality. Testosterone and chemicals produced during spermatogenesis inhibit further release of luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone, forming a negative feedback loop that keeps the rate of spermatogenesis and the level of testosterone in the blood nearly constant. So any additional exogenous testosterone will reduce the amount of sperm being produced.

Did this stallion have any kind of 'let-down' period after coming off the track? Perhaps he has some soreness issues?

[Spain]

As K~2 said, testosterone will decrease the sperm output. Compared to the testosterone the testicles get, since it's made in the Leydig cells in the testicles, any added testosterone in the blood is going to have a negative effect. But it will make the stud act more studdish.

[xfactor fan]

If you can get a hold of a copy of "Stud" one of the chapters covers (pardon the pun) hormone levels in stallions. The research mentioned in the book was that the teasers stallions who were stabled with the mares, were more studly than the breeding stallions that were kept away from mares and in isolation. The conclusion was that it was better to keep the breeding stallions in conditions more like a harum stallion.

Can the pastures be arranged so that your shy fellow can at least see and talk over the fence to the ladies?

Good luck with getting things going.

[EO]

Letting stallions act like stallions is the key. Basket Weave came to live with us because he wasn't getting half his mares in foal. He needed to scale back. Now, he gets turned out all day and he runs around smelling everything, and "marking" different spots and he is happy as a clam. He was stalled most of the time before. He gets to act as natural as is possible. He is 24 this year and lookin' good. Kathie King

[BJ]

I imagine this is not a topic that is well discussed though Gerry ... cant imagine too many stallions owners advertising this fact - that their stallions has little to *NO* interest in mares or breeding.

Interesting though how many stallions do seem to have this problem in one form or another ...

No, they save that for the global news, i.e., War Emblem

I'm sure many of the equine publications have covered this subject.

[xfactor fan]

It would be interesting to see how many "shy breeders" are kept stalled and in relative isolation.

At least give the poor fellows some kind of company, or the chance to talk to the ladies across the fence.