Dayjur is extremely well bred being by Danzig-Gold Beauty by Mr. Prospector. He has been somewhat a dissappointment as a sire but what are ones thoughts on him as a broodmare sire. He is the broodmare sire of Elusive City who is a winner of the Prix Morny-Group I. He is the broodmare sire of Raylene a daughter of Tabasco Cat who won the Canadian Derby and British Colombia Oaks. Great Notion another Elusive Quality horse is out of a Dayjur mare and won the Southwest S. and 2nd in the Grade I King's Bishop S. Group III winner Maharib is also out of a Dayjur mare. Duke of Venice a son of Theatrical is a winner of the Group II Queens Vase and is out of Rihan by Dayjur. Undefeated and multiple stakes winning 2 year old In Summation is by Put It Back-Fiesta Baby by Dayjur. What does one think of Dayjur as a broodmare sire?
Keith
Dayjur-What are ones thoughts on Dayjur as a broodmare sire?
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
Hi Keith,
Dayjur has been bred to some outstanding mares without a lot of success. His family is not as vital as they once had been - perhaps coincidentally.
Dayjur SHOULD have some success as a broodmare sire, but to date he's been somewhat lacking though he's been more promising on the bottom of the pedigree than the top.
Unlike Alysheba who had the numbers in his books fall sharply, Dayjur has been bred to reasonable numbers throughout. I'd expect that he'll end up in a few quality runners pedigrees, but unless I saw a daughter of his with a compelling pedigree and potential, I would pass.
Regards,
Pete
Dayjur has been bred to some outstanding mares without a lot of success. His family is not as vital as they once had been - perhaps coincidentally.
Dayjur SHOULD have some success as a broodmare sire, but to date he's been somewhat lacking though he's been more promising on the bottom of the pedigree than the top.
Unlike Alysheba who had the numbers in his books fall sharply, Dayjur has been bred to reasonable numbers throughout. I'd expect that he'll end up in a few quality runners pedigrees, but unless I saw a daughter of his with a compelling pedigree and potential, I would pass.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
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Coquinerie
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Hi Coke,
Tactfully and accurately put.
I classify Stick To Beauty as a non-reclaimable family. Similar to Levee and her clan.
Unlike Judy Rae, (with another G1 winner in Acey Deucey by none other than Abaginone), who has a powerfully reclaimable family, Stick To Beauty (and Levee/Delta/Bourtai) are not responding with quality winners even when bred to top stallions.
Judy-Rae's bunch continues to add SWs with the female family driving the quality, not the stallions. When they're not getting SWs, you have a good chance of getting useful runners and that's not the case with Stick To Beauty or Levee and their families.
It's probable that these non-reclaimable families will have good winners in the future, but the further from the source the more disparate these families are getting.
I don't look for nor advise the purchase of mares from these families because the sales results are starting to reflect a consumer dissatisfaction with them. I'll need to see them rebound first.
Regards,
Pete
Tactfully and accurately put.
I classify Stick To Beauty as a non-reclaimable family. Similar to Levee and her clan.
Unlike Judy Rae, (with another G1 winner in Acey Deucey by none other than Abaginone), who has a powerfully reclaimable family, Stick To Beauty (and Levee/Delta/Bourtai) are not responding with quality winners even when bred to top stallions.
Judy-Rae's bunch continues to add SWs with the female family driving the quality, not the stallions. When they're not getting SWs, you have a good chance of getting useful runners and that's not the case with Stick To Beauty or Levee and their families.
It's probable that these non-reclaimable families will have good winners in the future, but the further from the source the more disparate these families are getting.
I don't look for nor advise the purchase of mares from these families because the sales results are starting to reflect a consumer dissatisfaction with them. I'll need to see them rebound first.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
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Coquinerie
- Maiden Special Weight
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Although I agree with much of what you said, the Nalee branch of Levee is still quite active but limited in numbers all things considered (oh lord im sounding like FOS 'all things considered') and with Hussonet being the flag bearer for this branch as well as Stormin Fever.
With that being said, I hold the Courtly Dee clan, and hence the Judy-Rae family, above all others. In my opinion, the most stakes winner per number of family members in the stud book of the highest calibre.
With that being said, I hold the Courtly Dee clan, and hence the Judy-Rae family, above all others. In my opinion, the most stakes winner per number of family members in the stud book of the highest calibre.
Hi Karie,
Look up the report of mares bred and breeding statistics on the Jockey Club.
If you're satisfied that a large KY breeding farm has a stallion that gets 30 live foals from 67 mares covered, then he has no fertility problem (@44%).
To me his breeding record clearly indicates a reduced fertility, not infertility. It's a matter of opinion and perspective but I'd count my change after doing business with Shadwell.
As a comparison, Gainesway was up front about Broad Brush's problem as well as reduced fertility for Mt. Livermore. Losing these two good sires had to hurt, but breeders wren't mislead.
Regards,
Pete
Look up the report of mares bred and breeding statistics on the Jockey Club.
If you're satisfied that a large KY breeding farm has a stallion that gets 30 live foals from 67 mares covered, then he has no fertility problem (@44%).
To me his breeding record clearly indicates a reduced fertility, not infertility. It's a matter of opinion and perspective but I'd count my change after doing business with Shadwell.
As a comparison, Gainesway was up front about Broad Brush's problem as well as reduced fertility for Mt. Livermore. Losing these two good sires had to hurt, but breeders wren't mislead.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
Hi Coke,
Best of luck in Virginia today!
You're correct, Nalees Flying Flag line is active and doing well, with Pennant Fever's three Fever's, Raging, Stormin and Roaring.
Pete
Best of luck in Virginia today!
You're correct, Nalees Flying Flag line is active and doing well, with Pennant Fever's three Fever's, Raging, Stormin and Roaring.
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
Pete, when you class a family as "non-reclaimable," are you essentially saying that there is no consistent quality left -- you're just waiting for a mare from the family to establish her own matriarchy independent of the rest (if it ever happens)?
"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher...You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse." C. S. Lewis
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Karie
- Grade III Winner
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Pete,
I must have missed the 30 live foals from 67 mares... wow... not good.
I looked him at the begining of the year and thought his #'s were better than that... Must have looked at a previous year accidently. I couldn't find the link today to look again (jet lag from my Vegas trip) so I really appreciate the #'s
Shadwell was not up front at all about fertility. They said he is having NO problems when I spoke to them about his fertility.
My mare was covered 3 times - She is ready to be checked now (I was in vegas all week so I will get her checked as soon as my vet can make it out) The farm in Ky that I was at sent (including mine) 4 mares to him and 3 of the 4 for sure didn't catch. When I talked to them they said only 2 mares weren't in foal.. an older mare and a young "problem" mare...
I don't think I would ever send a mare there just because of that again.. The farm manager went with her on the 3rd and final trip to make sure all went well.. And by the way so you know I didn't pay the full price at all.
I bought a season to Sahm in the FL TB breeders Asoc sale and couldn't end up using it since my mare is a granddaughter of Sadlers Wells with Mr. Prospector also in her bottom side. Rather than lose all my $$$ they switched it to Dayjur (which was nice if them)....
Who knows if it was a good switch or if I lost all my $$$... I guess I will soon find out. He seems to look ok with this mare. Not that he would have been my first choice by any means!
- Karie
I must have missed the 30 live foals from 67 mares... wow... not good.
I looked him at the begining of the year and thought his #'s were better than that... Must have looked at a previous year accidently. I couldn't find the link today to look again (jet lag from my Vegas trip) so I really appreciate the #'s
Shadwell was not up front at all about fertility. They said he is having NO problems when I spoke to them about his fertility.
My mare was covered 3 times - She is ready to be checked now (I was in vegas all week so I will get her checked as soon as my vet can make it out) The farm in Ky that I was at sent (including mine) 4 mares to him and 3 of the 4 for sure didn't catch. When I talked to them they said only 2 mares weren't in foal.. an older mare and a young "problem" mare...
I don't think I would ever send a mare there just because of that again.. The farm manager went with her on the 3rd and final trip to make sure all went well.. And by the way so you know I didn't pay the full price at all.
I bought a season to Sahm in the FL TB breeders Asoc sale and couldn't end up using it since my mare is a granddaughter of Sadlers Wells with Mr. Prospector also in her bottom side. Rather than lose all my $$$ they switched it to Dayjur (which was nice if them)....
Who knows if it was a good switch or if I lost all my $$$... I guess I will soon find out. He seems to look ok with this mare. Not that he would have been my first choice by any means!
- Karie
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Pan Zareta
- Breeder's Cup Winner
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Mahubah wrote:Pete, when you class a family as "non-reclaimable," are you essentially saying that there is no consistent quality left -- you're just waiting for a mare from the family to establish her own matriarchy independent of the rest (if it ever happens)?
Mahubah, one of the more dramatic 'reclamations' of a tf line has to be that from which two of those stakes-winning Quarters by Favorite Trick spring. They tail to Fanny Elssler 1841 x *Picton whose damline as given by Bruce (ASB i:420) is impossible by dates. (Her 2nd dam by *Citizen might be Eppes' mare, A25, but presently Chris has this tf designated a86.) The line is still extant in the TB, but only sparsely so (two or three SW in the 20th cent., the last being Jim's First, winner of the 1965 Billings Claiming S). On the other hand - tho' I won't belabor the specifics on the TB board - in the QH this tf has been reliably producing GSW's for 40+ yrs, primarily through TB Otro Mambo (1951 x Three Bars - Verna H. by Howden). It would be interesting to see what the result might be if some of the contemporary TB mares in this tf were sent to TB sires of similar quality as those to which some of Otro Mambo's QH branch have been bred.
Hi Karie,
It's still a matter of perspective whether 30 live foals from 67 covers is a fertility problem or not. I prefer knowing what the perspective of the person denying a problem is. For a major KY farm, 44% live foals from a sizeable number of covers is, to me, a problem. I hope your perseverance pays off with Dayjur.
I think you need to defend your choice of sending mares to Dayjur and it's nice to know that Shadwell was accommodating to you.
Dayjur isn't an easy read by the numbers. On the surface he's got a mediocre 1.29 AEI vs. an astronomical 3.41 CI. Though this sounds like an awful ratio, there's more here than meets the eye (using the Bloodhorse 2005 Stallion Register for data).
Dayjur has been at Shadwell his entire career, yet most of his SWs were not based (or raced) in the USA. He's never had more than 53 foals in a crop and has averaged @35 foals a crop. With this profile, whether the European earnings are used in calculating the AEI or not, it would be lower.
Dayjur has 394 foals;
308 runners (78%) solid number of runners.
207 winners (52%) average for the breed, but a bit low for the # of runners.
78 2yo winners (20%) solid number.
22 SW (6%) respectable (in line with Royal Academy and Woodman for examples).
Dayjur's lifetime progeny earnings are @$18 million; @$45,000 per foal, @$55 per runner and @$89,000 per winner. All are respectable stats, but curiously only @$6.3 million is from turf runners (35%).
Since most of his SWs have been on the turf you get a clear idea that his get were racing against their pedigree here in the States (at least).
I'd make the hypothesis that foals from his first few crops were retired early (because they were well bred, like his son Danjur (first crop)) if they didn't show promise or were injured, and that later foals (who may not have been as well bred) are being raced too long (dragging down the AEI) and not on the turf while they still have ability.
Good luck,
Pete
It's still a matter of perspective whether 30 live foals from 67 covers is a fertility problem or not. I prefer knowing what the perspective of the person denying a problem is. For a major KY farm, 44% live foals from a sizeable number of covers is, to me, a problem. I hope your perseverance pays off with Dayjur.
I think you need to defend your choice of sending mares to Dayjur and it's nice to know that Shadwell was accommodating to you.
Dayjur isn't an easy read by the numbers. On the surface he's got a mediocre 1.29 AEI vs. an astronomical 3.41 CI. Though this sounds like an awful ratio, there's more here than meets the eye (using the Bloodhorse 2005 Stallion Register for data).
Dayjur has been at Shadwell his entire career, yet most of his SWs were not based (or raced) in the USA. He's never had more than 53 foals in a crop and has averaged @35 foals a crop. With this profile, whether the European earnings are used in calculating the AEI or not, it would be lower.
Dayjur has 394 foals;
308 runners (78%) solid number of runners.
207 winners (52%) average for the breed, but a bit low for the # of runners.
78 2yo winners (20%) solid number.
22 SW (6%) respectable (in line with Royal Academy and Woodman for examples).
Dayjur's lifetime progeny earnings are @$18 million; @$45,000 per foal, @$55 per runner and @$89,000 per winner. All are respectable stats, but curiously only @$6.3 million is from turf runners (35%).
Since most of his SWs have been on the turf you get a clear idea that his get were racing against their pedigree here in the States (at least).
I'd make the hypothesis that foals from his first few crops were retired early (because they were well bred, like his son Danjur (first crop)) if they didn't show promise or were injured, and that later foals (who may not have been as well bred) are being raced too long (dragging down the AEI) and not on the turf while they still have ability.
Good luck,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
Hi Mahubah and Pan,
My own classification of reclaimability is related to the recent success of a particular family. Most families are reclaimed to some degree as a product of time while others wither away.
Bill (Wash) brought up the excellent example of Mayonaise and her line that remained nearly dormant until Uvira II and the rest is (recent) history.
Coquinerie mentioned Pennant Fever as an existing and highly productive line to Nalee (through Letty's Pennant and Nalees Flag Flying) and this is an excellent example because most of the success can be traced to quality sires and especially connections (owners and trainers) who have a proven record at realizing potential.
Judy-Rae's line is notable because it’s shown the ability to throw top class runners in spite of lack of the above conditions, Acey Deucey being the most recent example.
Medaglia D'Oro is a good example of Sunday Evening's (his 6th dam) line being reclaimed. The weakening of the line begins with Sunday Evening's daughter, Royal Society, and continues (with fewer foals) for the next three generations until Cappuccino Bay's generation where some ability and class are again manifested.
For a breed to race owner, this kind of profile can be leveraged (notice that there are no foals listed as being sold at public auction in Medaglia D'Oro's 1st and 2nd generation). It’s less viable for commercial breeders.
Pan, you make a good point that some failed dam lines can be leveraged in other areas. Otro Mambo isn't an example of reclamation, more of re-direction.
When a breeder looks at a line like that of Stick To Beauty, where a line seems to be drawn with Sky Beauty's last race, they need to investigate what has happened that would cause such a sudden decline in the success of the family. It isn’t the sires that were used nor the connections because these foals have had this advantage. Sky Beauty’s siblings have had almost no success as well as her own foals. Not being able to recognize why the family is failing make it difficult to leverage the quality that may still be there.
Regards,
Pete
My own classification of reclaimability is related to the recent success of a particular family. Most families are reclaimed to some degree as a product of time while others wither away.
Bill (Wash) brought up the excellent example of Mayonaise and her line that remained nearly dormant until Uvira II and the rest is (recent) history.
Coquinerie mentioned Pennant Fever as an existing and highly productive line to Nalee (through Letty's Pennant and Nalees Flag Flying) and this is an excellent example because most of the success can be traced to quality sires and especially connections (owners and trainers) who have a proven record at realizing potential.
Judy-Rae's line is notable because it’s shown the ability to throw top class runners in spite of lack of the above conditions, Acey Deucey being the most recent example.
Medaglia D'Oro is a good example of Sunday Evening's (his 6th dam) line being reclaimed. The weakening of the line begins with Sunday Evening's daughter, Royal Society, and continues (with fewer foals) for the next three generations until Cappuccino Bay's generation where some ability and class are again manifested.
For a breed to race owner, this kind of profile can be leveraged (notice that there are no foals listed as being sold at public auction in Medaglia D'Oro's 1st and 2nd generation). It’s less viable for commercial breeders.
Pan, you make a good point that some failed dam lines can be leveraged in other areas. Otro Mambo isn't an example of reclamation, more of re-direction.
When a breeder looks at a line like that of Stick To Beauty, where a line seems to be drawn with Sky Beauty's last race, they need to investigate what has happened that would cause such a sudden decline in the success of the family. It isn’t the sires that were used nor the connections because these foals have had this advantage. Sky Beauty’s siblings have had almost no success as well as her own foals. Not being able to recognize why the family is failing make it difficult to leverage the quality that may still be there.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
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Karie
- Grade III Winner
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- Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 11:03 am
- Location: Livonia, Michigan
- Contact:
Pete,
I just wanted to add that this mare is for sale in foal.. Hopefully she sells, otherwise we will have a Michigan bred baby out of her to sell in the Michigan bred sale as a yearling.
She hasn't teased in heat so I am hoping that she is in foal. Since I don't have a huge farm its rather difficult to get the "good" reproductive vet out. I am awating a call from him to see when he can get out. Cross your fingers for me that she IS in foal and that she sells!
The mare also ran her best races (all 4 wins) on the dirt, so I expected a dirt horse out of her anyway... But I do find those numbers for Dayjur rather interesting... I did some research on him, but none that deep.
I am starting my research for next year and am curious where you were able to access the turf/dirt numbers like that? If that from an equineline or brisnet report?? If you could point me in the direction to find out those kind of numbers I would really appreciate it! I don't want to be stuck in this kind of a mess next year! Well, actually I am pretty positive that wont happen in 2006! I have learned A LOT this year.
I just wanted to add that this mare is for sale in foal.. Hopefully she sells, otherwise we will have a Michigan bred baby out of her to sell in the Michigan bred sale as a yearling.
She hasn't teased in heat so I am hoping that she is in foal. Since I don't have a huge farm its rather difficult to get the "good" reproductive vet out. I am awating a call from him to see when he can get out. Cross your fingers for me that she IS in foal and that she sells!
The mare also ran her best races (all 4 wins) on the dirt, so I expected a dirt horse out of her anyway... But I do find those numbers for Dayjur rather interesting... I did some research on him, but none that deep.
I am starting my research for next year and am curious where you were able to access the turf/dirt numbers like that? If that from an equineline or brisnet report?? If you could point me in the direction to find out those kind of numbers I would really appreciate it! I don't want to be stuck in this kind of a mess next year! Well, actually I am pretty positive that wont happen in 2006! I have learned A LOT this year.