Anyone know if any studies have been done on horses who savage themselves? I had read many years ago they thought it was genetic. I believe I remember Round Table was a savage and knew his son Beau Brummel was one and heard that several sons were.
Genetics? Nutrition? Boredom? Do stallions do it more than mares/geldings? Confined horses do it more than pastured horses? Unexercised horses more than exercised horses? At what age has it been observed starting?
Horses who savage themselves
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
There was an article about this in TB Times recently (within the past 2 months). You might be able to find it in their archives.
If I remember correctly, the conclusion they drew was that horses that savaged themselves had the equine equivilent of tourette's syndrome, which means there probably is a genetic component.
If I remember correctly, the conclusion they drew was that horses that savaged themselves had the equine equivilent of tourette's syndrome, which means there probably is a genetic component.
I guess I'm going to chime in here concerning Round Table. I'd venture to say we've got more Round Table blood here than most anywhere in the Country and since we've been using this blood via grandsons and granddaughters for over 14 years I "might" have seen this habit rear it's ugly face. We've double Round Table via sons and daughters of Apalachee, King Pelinore, King's Bishop, Tell and Tables sister Monarchy and have never seen any "savaging". Something if it were genetic in this bloodline, we might have seen. What we do find though is, these youngsters are very smart and if left alone without companionship of others, can find lots of mischief. It takes more than a Jolly Ball to keep them out of trouble. So on Round Table's behalf, I'd say boredom was his problem and most likely the problem with other sons of his that took up this habit. Something I hesitate to mention here but, I will...both of our old stallion take their foals to raise at weaning time. Fillies are separated as yearling but, the colts remain with their dads through 2, only separated during breeding season and when they're sent off to be started under saddle.
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mary syers
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Snake River
For a brief time in the 80's I was partner on a double bred La Troienne horse who had a bad problem with tearing his own hide off--Snake River. He seemed to be responding to pure sexual frustration. Any time we walked a mare past his stall, he went ballistic. A blanket cup on his halter, alot of outside time, and actual access to mares helped this old boy get better. He developed a real attachment to my partner. He would lead by gently taking the shoulder of her jacket in his teeth and follow her anywhere without any pressure on the lead rope. I suspect he was lonely, frustrated, under fed, and isolated before we got him. Just off hand, he hated me, but then you can only have one love. He died of a stroke quickly, still in her possession. Mary Syers
This is a subject that really intrigues me because of a horse I bred and raced, Batante Grande.
In 1999 I bred my mare to Stephene's Mon Amour - a full to SW NICHOLAS - both by DANZIG and out of the Lulu Mon Amour-Levee-Bourtai female family that nicked quite successfully with the Danzig sireline.
Stephene Mon Amour began exhibiting this sort of behaviour on the farm later in the breeding season (BTW his first), but only when he was turned out. He was something of a mild, intermittant stall walker/weaver, more what I would term a restless type in the stallion barn. I noticed that he would tend to hang back in his stall, and 'circle' up to the front to meet you but quickly circle back to back wall. He was not a horse that you ever felt had really taken any note of your presence.
His flank biting behaviour would build up over a period of about an hour or so after being turned out in the paddock. At first he'd be fine in the paddock, then you'd see him biting at his flanks as if at bugs (which in Texas there usually are in abundance), then he'd start to take a step backwards and bite at his flanks with more intensity, this behaviour building in fury and intensity until eventually he was practically cantering backwards all the while flailing at his own flanks. (I never really saw where he tore hide off of himself - it was more like he was going through the motions.) The stallion manager that boarded/stood this stallion did some research and found a source from Australia - I think - that had correlated this behaviour in some of it's exhibitors to sun exposure. Other sources in the literature related it to the pressure of stallion rivalry and still other sources made note of the possibility of a 'Tourette's type syndrome' as the root cause. There was very little information out there and the results of any study were so limited as to be inconclusive and much of it was contradictory of the other research.
However as a result, Stephene Mon Amour was moved out of the Stallion Barn to his own quarters and given shorter turnouts in the day - limited to when he began his initial flank biting - and longer turnout at evening, when sure enough he didn't do this. He gained weight and became much more focused on his job as a stallion and was better able to perform.
My mare produced his colt in January of 2000 and we raced him as a gelding, Bastante Grande, at age 4, with one win from about 8 outs.
I would definitely say that he inherited 'something' of a obsessive compulsive disorder - whether soley from his sire or in part from his dam, I cannot say. I say this though he never exhibited the flank biting phenomena. B.G. was from the get-go a high energy sort that 'needed a job' to keep his attention....and company for his well-being/sanity. He often showed a passion for the repetitive type task, or routine, like being on the hotwalker. I used to joke about this high strung, hi-maintenance guy being the 'perfect merrie-go-round horse! Restless when 'at rest' he could be a menace to his own health in the stall and often circled endlessly, at times almost galloping in his stall. He was especially prone to this latter when he anticipated being taken out for exercise and in fact injured himself as a 2YO saddled and awaiting a rider for what was to be his first official work. He was very prone to stomach ulcers and it's hard to say which came first - the ulcers or the severe stall walking. I think he'd be anxious and get ulcers and then he'd stall walk, probabally intensifying the anxiety/ulcers, and so forth, like a viscious circle. He was very reactive to his surroundings and wanted to be with other horses, in their company, at least in sight of them. The happiest and most relaxed he ever was being stalled was at our trainers: they put him in the hi-traffic corner stall and had free choice hay inside and outside on both sides of his door 24/7; his stall gate was replaced with a racing type door that allowed him to hang his head out and take in all the other horses as they were led out to be exercised, brought in to be rinsed off. He was also given Neighlox daily after first treating him with the full course of Gatroguard. He worked well, gained weight and only did the stall walking/circling thing when he was first brought in from going to the local track to be worked or raced and then only for 30 minutes to a couple of hours before he'd stop and settle in.
This horse was an extremely athletic sort and playful. He loved to be turned out in a pasture with other horses he could romp with, he always went to the track for a gallop, jog or work with enthusiasm AND he absolutely adored being on the hotwalker, as near as I could tell would have happily gone round and round all day long and he would kick out at another horse that tried to stop it's rotations.
I always thought the most amazing thing about this horse though was how calm he was in the gate - and under saddle. He never reared, bucked or danced around once his rider was up - he was all business and quite calm as if he'd turned over all his anxiety to this new driver. But he acted so crazy and wound up prior to being mounted it was hard to get a rider to believe that he was really easy to ride. Also, from his earliest training he was dead calm in the gate. This was true even his very first time with another horse beside him - a young filly who proceeded to flip herslef in the gate and got trapped under the apparatus, so that he had to be backed out and the gate moved to free her. He acted as if he was in a zone and totally unaware of all the yelling, squealing and commotion going on around him. He'd walk into the gate without hesitation every time and once in he'd just stand there - truly the only time I ever saw him "at rest" - with his legs squarely under him, his neck bowed slightly, head down and his eyes half closed. He looked like he was taking a nap! Big surprise to his riders who I think sometimes mistook him for a sluggard because of his laid back - seemingly bored attitude in the gate - once opened he would jump out of there like a jack rabbit. He was never anything but explosive coming out of the gate, no matter how the race actually ended up being run.
I've also wondered if some of his behavior - all of which manifested itsself when he was stalled and which - once his ulcers were treated - would vanish if kept turned out with other horses, was triggered by seperation anxiety. Perhaps it's a case of the 'herd mentality' gene amplified to the extreme.
In 1999 I bred my mare to Stephene's Mon Amour - a full to SW NICHOLAS - both by DANZIG and out of the Lulu Mon Amour-Levee-Bourtai female family that nicked quite successfully with the Danzig sireline.
Stephene Mon Amour began exhibiting this sort of behaviour on the farm later in the breeding season (BTW his first), but only when he was turned out. He was something of a mild, intermittant stall walker/weaver, more what I would term a restless type in the stallion barn. I noticed that he would tend to hang back in his stall, and 'circle' up to the front to meet you but quickly circle back to back wall. He was not a horse that you ever felt had really taken any note of your presence.
His flank biting behaviour would build up over a period of about an hour or so after being turned out in the paddock. At first he'd be fine in the paddock, then you'd see him biting at his flanks as if at bugs (which in Texas there usually are in abundance), then he'd start to take a step backwards and bite at his flanks with more intensity, this behaviour building in fury and intensity until eventually he was practically cantering backwards all the while flailing at his own flanks. (I never really saw where he tore hide off of himself - it was more like he was going through the motions.) The stallion manager that boarded/stood this stallion did some research and found a source from Australia - I think - that had correlated this behaviour in some of it's exhibitors to sun exposure. Other sources in the literature related it to the pressure of stallion rivalry and still other sources made note of the possibility of a 'Tourette's type syndrome' as the root cause. There was very little information out there and the results of any study were so limited as to be inconclusive and much of it was contradictory of the other research.
However as a result, Stephene Mon Amour was moved out of the Stallion Barn to his own quarters and given shorter turnouts in the day - limited to when he began his initial flank biting - and longer turnout at evening, when sure enough he didn't do this. He gained weight and became much more focused on his job as a stallion and was better able to perform.
My mare produced his colt in January of 2000 and we raced him as a gelding, Bastante Grande, at age 4, with one win from about 8 outs.
I would definitely say that he inherited 'something' of a obsessive compulsive disorder - whether soley from his sire or in part from his dam, I cannot say. I say this though he never exhibited the flank biting phenomena. B.G. was from the get-go a high energy sort that 'needed a job' to keep his attention....and company for his well-being/sanity. He often showed a passion for the repetitive type task, or routine, like being on the hotwalker. I used to joke about this high strung, hi-maintenance guy being the 'perfect merrie-go-round horse! Restless when 'at rest' he could be a menace to his own health in the stall and often circled endlessly, at times almost galloping in his stall. He was especially prone to this latter when he anticipated being taken out for exercise and in fact injured himself as a 2YO saddled and awaiting a rider for what was to be his first official work. He was very prone to stomach ulcers and it's hard to say which came first - the ulcers or the severe stall walking. I think he'd be anxious and get ulcers and then he'd stall walk, probabally intensifying the anxiety/ulcers, and so forth, like a viscious circle. He was very reactive to his surroundings and wanted to be with other horses, in their company, at least in sight of them. The happiest and most relaxed he ever was being stalled was at our trainers: they put him in the hi-traffic corner stall and had free choice hay inside and outside on both sides of his door 24/7; his stall gate was replaced with a racing type door that allowed him to hang his head out and take in all the other horses as they were led out to be exercised, brought in to be rinsed off. He was also given Neighlox daily after first treating him with the full course of Gatroguard. He worked well, gained weight and only did the stall walking/circling thing when he was first brought in from going to the local track to be worked or raced and then only for 30 minutes to a couple of hours before he'd stop and settle in.
This horse was an extremely athletic sort and playful. He loved to be turned out in a pasture with other horses he could romp with, he always went to the track for a gallop, jog or work with enthusiasm AND he absolutely adored being on the hotwalker, as near as I could tell would have happily gone round and round all day long and he would kick out at another horse that tried to stop it's rotations.
I always thought the most amazing thing about this horse though was how calm he was in the gate - and under saddle. He never reared, bucked or danced around once his rider was up - he was all business and quite calm as if he'd turned over all his anxiety to this new driver. But he acted so crazy and wound up prior to being mounted it was hard to get a rider to believe that he was really easy to ride. Also, from his earliest training he was dead calm in the gate. This was true even his very first time with another horse beside him - a young filly who proceeded to flip herslef in the gate and got trapped under the apparatus, so that he had to be backed out and the gate moved to free her. He acted as if he was in a zone and totally unaware of all the yelling, squealing and commotion going on around him. He'd walk into the gate without hesitation every time and once in he'd just stand there - truly the only time I ever saw him "at rest" - with his legs squarely under him, his neck bowed slightly, head down and his eyes half closed. He looked like he was taking a nap! Big surprise to his riders who I think sometimes mistook him for a sluggard because of his laid back - seemingly bored attitude in the gate - once opened he would jump out of there like a jack rabbit. He was never anything but explosive coming out of the gate, no matter how the race actually ended up being run.
I've also wondered if some of his behavior - all of which manifested itsself when he was stalled and which - once his ulcers were treated - would vanish if kept turned out with other horses, was triggered by seperation anxiety. Perhaps it's a case of the 'herd mentality' gene amplified to the extreme.
When my horse got kicked in on the knee we had it starting to heal , then he began eating the wound , i nievely trusted my vet , no longer my vet now, who operated to clear the infection the chewing had caused and then instead of buying a cradle for him , which i asked for, tied my horse in a stall at the vetinairy center on a foot of lead rope for 3 and a half months , i was assured he was fine and being turned out every day , which apparently translated to five minuites in a paddock with no grass , he was not thin when i visited him but his coat was so dull and so were his eyes that in the end, even though they insisted he needed to stay there i told them i was takeing him home. They gave me instructions to keep him in for a further six months , needless to say the day i got him back i finialy did the right thing and followed my gut instinct , i turned him out . He is now sound and jumping his knee is not cosmeticaly nice but it hasn't given him any trouble yet . It took me two years to get him sound mentaly . I still dont know why he started to eat his leg , i just wish i'd learnt faster that you shouldnt just accept what some one in a position of authority says , the vet cocked up , tried to cover up , and i wish i'd seen it sooner .
Funny. These examples (except for the last one) sounded to me like Restless Leg Syndrome. I have RLS. Makes me want to keep moving, keep walking, I'm fine as long as I'm not still, if I have to be still, I thump on my leg to dispell the muscle jumps, it makes me crazy. Just a errant thought. Carry on.
Some people are like slinkies. Not really good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs.
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doublete
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Jellac- You just described my dearly departed gelding Wild and Striking, except for the calm in the gate part. "Nero" however got very attached to me, and would stay relatively quiet as long as I was around. He did run his stall, and I couldn't stop it, no matter how much food or activity or exercise I gave him. He was always fit though. 
He was however a hard to handle bundle of energy at race time. He ONLY behaved for me, on a simple chain over his nose, prior to me he was lead with a lip chain, a metal halter, or such more aggressive means. He was always saddled outside in the paddock, but not necessarily 'on the walk', just standing looking at the crowd.. that's pretty much what kept him entertained long enough to get the saddle on. Then the gate... ohh that was a different story. It got so once they knew I was doing my best with him (he schooled the gate 2 times a week, and ALWAYS 3 days out from a race, sometimes only 2 days out), so they assigned the same gate crew to him, and he got much better, but prior to me he was backed in, struggled with to get in the gate, it was miserable for all involved. He'd dropped many a jockey behind the gate too.
Anyways, his bloodlines are Alydar and Wild Again. Of the Wild Again's that i've seen (I have a mare as well), they're high energy, but other than having no regard for 'resting' themselves, aren't necessarily savaging themselves.
He was however a hard to handle bundle of energy at race time. He ONLY behaved for me, on a simple chain over his nose, prior to me he was lead with a lip chain, a metal halter, or such more aggressive means. He was always saddled outside in the paddock, but not necessarily 'on the walk', just standing looking at the crowd.. that's pretty much what kept him entertained long enough to get the saddle on. Then the gate... ohh that was a different story. It got so once they knew I was doing my best with him (he schooled the gate 2 times a week, and ALWAYS 3 days out from a race, sometimes only 2 days out), so they assigned the same gate crew to him, and he got much better, but prior to me he was backed in, struggled with to get in the gate, it was miserable for all involved. He'd dropped many a jockey behind the gate too.
Anyways, his bloodlines are Alydar and Wild Again. Of the Wild Again's that i've seen (I have a mare as well), they're high energy, but other than having no regard for 'resting' themselves, aren't necessarily savaging themselves.
Racing and retraining.