Pedigree Query

Lately I've been trying to come up with proven commercial, proven highly productive, compatible stallions to mate with my available 2006 mares. Shake On It is barren, and can start early. Vivid Dreams and Hop to It aren't due until late April. Spanish Guitar is due so late in May, that I'll skip this year unless she aborts.

I've thought about the stallions I've seen that gave me goose-bumps in person, but some have not been all that successful as producers, or have not been commercial. Here's a random list:

Century City is gorgeous, and was an expensive sales yearling. His babies haven't yet raced.

Richter Scale was a very talented racehorse, too early to know ability as a sire.

Yes It's True is all-class, a proven-producer of talent and beauty.

Smoke Glacken is a solid producer, and very talented.

Maria's Mon gets little respect at his high stud fee, but can put out the big horse, just not high percentages.

Honour and Glory is a grand-looking outcross, with some success.

Forest Camp, solid sprinter and producer of thus-far precocious 2yo's.

Dixie Union has a beautiful fluid, self-assured walk, and puts out good looking babes, some are now racing well. But his sireline has not been sire-of-sires.


Others to consider that did not inspire me in person, but because of their success at sale and in racing:

Silver Deputy, More Than Ready, Cherokee Run, Arch.

And those that are great producers that don't sell well, if I wanted for breed-to-race:

Alphabet Soup, Petionville, Smart Strike, Langfuhr, Indian Charlie.

Is there such a thing as a commercial, productive stallion? Where do I find this mythic animal? I'm literally having brain fry trying to look at stallions for next year.

Oh, Austique, and I forgot to mention good value and inexpensive.

Actually I also forgot to add Include as a good sales sire who hasn't yet had runners.

Shake On It has no Northern Dancer or Mr. Prospector, but instead has Exclusive Native thru Affirmed. Dam is by Bargain Day, out of a Key to the Kingdom mare.

I'd think she'd do well with the Nearctic line, some added Bold Ruler or Raise a Native, and possibly Ribot or Hail to Reason. For proven class, I'd consider Silver Deputy.

Good value and inexpensive? Commercial and proven producers? Now you truly have gone insane! You have to love a stallion like Silver Deputy. 73% starters 58% winners 8% stakes winners $100,000+ yearling average. He's definitely a solid choice.

[quote="henthorn"]:

I'd think she'd do well with the Nearctic line, quote]

Henthorn,

In the last ten years Affirmed's been found in 24 GIWs according to the G1Goldmine Database and only 11 have Nearctic on the other side (which is less than Nearctic's percentage of the GIWs in the database).

Still, Affirmed in the broodmare sire position has done well with Nearctic...

The overall point though is that Nearctic's much too far back for you to be realistically talking about him being "good" for a mare unless you have some explicitable basis for your opinion.

Why didn't the mare take to Saarland?

-llbean

This is not from personal experience, but from time to make a lot of subjective observation (for what little it's worth!). I wouldn't consider Indian Charlie because of soundness issues. Maria's Mon isn't worth his stud fee for what he's produced so far. I like Arch because I love grass horses, but some of his babies can be pretty coarse looking. I tried to get a friend to breed to Smoke Glacken his 2nd yr. at stud and they wouldn't do it. He's kicking himself now.

How about Petionville? His babies are getting better and better.

Henthorn.
Love Northern Afleet, especially at 25k and under. Taylor Made may be in a predictament because of the Our Emblem debacle. Jump all over him at anything less than 35K.
Love Smoke Glacken, Yes it's True, More than Ready, Distorted Humor, Grand Slam, Elusive Quality, El Prado (no particular order) really like Petionville, Arch, Smart Strike, Mutakkdim, Menifee, and Alphabet Soup in Ky. I really try to breed "Like to Like" so conformation and pedigree factor in substantially as well.
In Florida, don't forget Eltish and West Acre, both are very good values if stud fee and value are very big factors.

I would junp on the Forest Camp as he is super hot and likely to be a stallion that will move mares forward... Stay away from Ritcher Scale. I love Mutakidim as Seeking the gold appears to be a foundation sire. These 2 would top my list obviosly I do not know the confirmation value of your mares but if you are breeding to sell FOREST CAMP and FAST

Maria's Mon is definitely not worth his stud fee and I don't think it will go down much after having High Limit do so well earlier in the year. I personally don't like his colts, they are too refined and look more like fillies.

Henthorn wrote the following about stallions with my comments in [ ]
Century City is gorgeous, and was an expensive sales yearling. His babies haven't yet raced.
[My Predictive Sire program gives him a good GRA score so good chance, but all turf bothers me in North America]

Richter Scale was a very talented racehorse, too early to know ability as a sire.
[no positive activity in a long time]

Yes It's True is all-class, a proven-producer of talent and beauty.
[dominates matings in a positive speed way from Florida matings]

Smoke Glacken is a solid producer, and very talented.
[nice foals, upgrades many mares, solid]

Maria's Mon gets little respect at his high stud fee, but can put out the big horse, just not high percentages.
[Dead in the water minus the odd exception, might make a good BS like his daddy]

Honour and Glory is a grand-looking outcross, with some success.
[dull, spinning his wheels]

Forest Camp, solid sprinter and producer of thus-far precocious 2yo's.
[solid start at stud which I predicted in my newsletter but even better than I thought. However, a lot of sires start this way then level out...Red Ransom, etc.]

Dixie Union has a beautiful fluid, self-assured walk, and puts out good looking babes, some are now racing well. But his sireline has not been sire-of-sires.
[dominates matings like Yes It's True, terrific start not predicted by me, Sireline solid as most]

Others to consider that did not inspire me in person, but because of their success at sale and in racing:

Silver Deputy,
[hardly any holes, good start as BS]

More Than Ready
[solid book doing okay]

Cherokee Run
[home run hitter at least once in each crop, too erratic for me though]

Arch
[does his thing, fairly solid]

And those that are great producers that don't sell well, if I wanted for breed-to-race:

Alphabet Soup
[what more does this sire have to do with his book, shows stupidity of hard boots in Kentucky, probably doesn't want Stronach to get the money, that's all]

Petionville
[successful against all odds, but not for every mare]


Smart Strike
[like Alphabet Soup, proves the average IQ of a KY breeder who avoids him is two digits at most]

Langfuhr
[erratic but useful with the right mares]

Indian Charlie
[solid quality speed, gets no respect, but if you find one in an allowance race or higher better keep in the exotics and on top. One of the few top sires that duplicates his own speed in many of his foals.

not sure how useful this is to your operation, but another opinion is always a good thing to solicit.

A little input on one of your stallions...Forest Camp has trouble getting his mares settled. I don't think it's a fertility issue, more a lack of desire to breed, though I could be wrong about that. Nevertheless, there were mares this year who tried several times with him then switched off to other stallions. Just something to consider when making your choice.

I want to thank all that took the time and effort to evaluate these ideas and make comments. They are indeed very helpful to me, as I am definitely undecided. I am new to the breeding business, and although this mating for Shake on It would be her fifth foal, her first one is just now racing, a four-year-old by With Approval.

My absolute maximum stud fee would be for a $40K stallion with hopefully some discount, as there is also the 6% sales tax included. And that would be by scraping the barrel for the cost, and diminishing the price ranges for other mares. I'd rather stay at $25K and under if I thought it made sense.

As for phenotype, Shake is a moderate-size, well-conformed mare that would go well with any size stallion, but does sometimes take a while to get pregnant. llbean, she did go to the court of Saarland last year, but failed to get pregnant before end of June, so we quit for the year. She does not stamp her babies, and they tend to take after the sires.

Hi Henthorn,
How about Tomahawk? He is in Ontario not KY so I don't know if you would consider there? Seattle Slew son, champion in Ire at 2, sold for 2..5 mil as a yearling, is out of a GSW mare, family of Academy Award, Saturday in May.

Henthorn,

I'd strongly consider going back to Saarland...

-llbean