Pico Central
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Pico Central
Does anybody have an opinion of him as a sire? His female family has been in South America for quite a while and sire Spend A Buck, I always felt was underrated. At $10,000 stands and nurses, I think he's worth a gamble, but was wondering what others thought.
hi austique
Pico Central...a BRILLIANT fast race horse. He embarrased Speightstown the only time they faced each other. In my opinion Pico was worthy of the sprint eclipse in 2004.
As a race horse he was exceptional...as a potential sire he concerns me greatly and I expect he'll need just the right kind of mares to enhance his chances for any degree of success.
Florida will have a number of very interesting young stallion prospects to choose from. For starters...Closing Argument...Pico Central...Proud Accolade and Indian Ocean.
Closing Argument's announced at $10,000 live...you indicate Pico Central is announced at $10,000...I believe that Proud Accolade has been announced at $5,000...and I don't believe a stud fee has been tagged on Indian Ocean yet.
It'll be interesting to see what the first-year stallion group for 2006 will look like...and evaluate them not just race-record-wise and pedigree-wise...but conformationally.
My first thought re: Pico Central (at stud) is that you could probably spend your money more wisely than sinking it into him (especially at $10k).
Respectfully
Pico Central...a BRILLIANT fast race horse. He embarrased Speightstown the only time they faced each other. In my opinion Pico was worthy of the sprint eclipse in 2004.
As a race horse he was exceptional...as a potential sire he concerns me greatly and I expect he'll need just the right kind of mares to enhance his chances for any degree of success.
Florida will have a number of very interesting young stallion prospects to choose from. For starters...Closing Argument...Pico Central...Proud Accolade and Indian Ocean.
Closing Argument's announced at $10,000 live...you indicate Pico Central is announced at $10,000...I believe that Proud Accolade has been announced at $5,000...and I don't believe a stud fee has been tagged on Indian Ocean yet.
It'll be interesting to see what the first-year stallion group for 2006 will look like...and evaluate them not just race-record-wise and pedigree-wise...but conformationally.
My first thought re: Pico Central (at stud) is that you could probably spend your money more wisely than sinking it into him (especially at $10k).
Respectfully
FOS,
I can totally see the negatives and as always respect your opinions. He's by Spend A Buck who is not a sire of sires and he's the lone representative from this female family who's had any success in the U.S. (at least from what I could tell). He was; however, brilliantly fast and offers some new blood for pedigrees weighed down by Mr. P and ND and he made 17 starts a veritable iron horse by todays standards
. I think he might be worth a gamble but I can totally see why you would suggest against it.
As for the others you mentioned, Closing Argument is out for most of my mares with 2 crosses of Mr. P already, but I think he's gutty, consistent horse althought $10,000 does seem a little steep to me for him, but not outlandishly so.
Indian Ocean has a very nice pedigree. He's actually on my short list although the short race career is bothersome and he again is not by a proven sire of sires. He is one I want to look at. Price is really a factor on him for me.
Proud Accolade another by a young sire. 3yo drop off was a little disconcerting especially given that I watched him run some races where he didn't even seem to try. Price is right for a gamble (which all first year sires are). His sire certainly did well starting off in Florida. Hmmmm ...
I'm actually looking at quite a few stallions in FL as it seems there is a little more value to be had among the proven sire ranks down there and there also seems to be good value if you want to test the unproven ranks there also.
Out of curiousity FOS, what do you think will be the effect of the seemingly large number of young stallions coming on the market (I have I think 34 right now) given that we haven't even hit stallion retirement sweeps week (after the Breeder's Cup) yet? Oh and they haven't announced the retirement of the magically disappearing Bandini yet.
I can totally see the negatives and as always respect your opinions. He's by Spend A Buck who is not a sire of sires and he's the lone representative from this female family who's had any success in the U.S. (at least from what I could tell). He was; however, brilliantly fast and offers some new blood for pedigrees weighed down by Mr. P and ND and he made 17 starts a veritable iron horse by todays standards
. I think he might be worth a gamble but I can totally see why you would suggest against it.
As for the others you mentioned, Closing Argument is out for most of my mares with 2 crosses of Mr. P already, but I think he's gutty, consistent horse althought $10,000 does seem a little steep to me for him, but not outlandishly so.
Indian Ocean has a very nice pedigree. He's actually on my short list although the short race career is bothersome and he again is not by a proven sire of sires. He is one I want to look at. Price is really a factor on him for me.
Proud Accolade another by a young sire. 3yo drop off was a little disconcerting especially given that I watched him run some races where he didn't even seem to try. Price is right for a gamble (which all first year sires are). His sire certainly did well starting off in Florida. Hmmmm ...
I'm actually looking at quite a few stallions in FL as it seems there is a little more value to be had among the proven sire ranks down there and there also seems to be good value if you want to test the unproven ranks there also.
Out of curiousity FOS, what do you think will be the effect of the seemingly large number of young stallions coming on the market (I have I think 34 right now) given that we haven't even hit stallion retirement sweeps week (after the Breeder's Cup) yet? Oh and they haven't announced the retirement of the magically disappearing Bandini yet.
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kimberley mine
- Breeder's Cup Contender
- Posts: 1811
- Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:43 pm
(edited for spelling mistakes)
Pico Central's pedigree is, in essence, a reverse cross of millionaire Bounding Basque. PC has Prince John, Eight Thirty, and Tom Fool on top (through Speak John, Buckaroo, Rare Perfume) and Grey Dawn II below. Bounding Basque has Grey Dawn II up top, and PJ/ET/TF on the dam's side. Either way, the cross worked remarkably well in both instances. There is a lot in this pedigree to work with.
This is the early morning off-the-cuff analysis of what mares might click with Pico Central:
Hail to Reason is a natural assumption anywhere I see Tom Fool and Bebop, with or without Buckpasser. This cross directly produced Stop the Music, and spread out over time produced SWs Silver Buck, Goodbye Halo, Hurontario, Personal Draw, Dust Bucket (by Spend a Buck!), South Vagancia (ARG), South March (ARG), etc. Bounding Basque's best offspring (and only millionaire) was from a Halo mare. Spend a Buck also has a stakes-placed filly from a Roberto mare. Bringing in Hail to Reason via Halo has been so successful due to the power of Halo's dam Cosmah and Prince John's dam Not Afraid. Not Afraid is the daughter of Banish Fear, who is also the dam of Cosmah's sire Cosmic Bomb.
Grey Dawn II appreciates a return of his damline through Ampola, who is commonly found through Green Dancer's dam blue hen dam Sly Pola by Spy Song. Digging about more in this family, we find another blue hen, Locust Time by Spy Song. Spy Song and Grey Dawn II did not produce any stakes winners that I have found (yet--it's only 8am) but Grey Dawn II over Spy Song produced 3 hard-knocking winners with earnings of $106k, $46k, and $28k (all in the mid 1970s, all with a minimum of 20 starts).
Spend a Buck hails from a branch of Helene de Troie that stayed in France a while longer, then moved to either North or South America. While the descendants of Adargartis are not as well-known (or, perhaps, prolific) as Helene de Troie's other daughter La Troienne, she is still a key ancestor in this pedigree and prime linebreeding target.
I realize that Bounding Basque is not Pico Central, but looking at his pedigree is a useful place to start when analyzing PC's pedigree. Basque has a stakes winner and a stakes placer out of Raja Baba mares. Hmmmm. Down in the land of the southern cross, Spend a Buck has a stakes winner and two winners out of Raja Baba mares.
So, for Pico Central:
*Hail to Reason, particularly through Halo
*Other crosses to Cosmah including Tomsah, Cannonade, La Dame du Lac, etc.
*Other crosses to Banish Fear (Bold Count, Perception, Crystal Water) and Not Afraid
*Green Dancer, Val Danseur, Soviet Lad, and other descendents of Sly Pola
*La Troienne, any way you can get her. Extra credit for her half-sister Adargartis.
*Raja Baba (Is It True, Yes It's True).
*Crimson Saint (Spy Song through Terlingua, Royal Academy, Pancho Villa)
Pico Central's pedigree is, in essence, a reverse cross of millionaire Bounding Basque. PC has Prince John, Eight Thirty, and Tom Fool on top (through Speak John, Buckaroo, Rare Perfume) and Grey Dawn II below. Bounding Basque has Grey Dawn II up top, and PJ/ET/TF on the dam's side. Either way, the cross worked remarkably well in both instances. There is a lot in this pedigree to work with.
This is the early morning off-the-cuff analysis of what mares might click with Pico Central:
Hail to Reason is a natural assumption anywhere I see Tom Fool and Bebop, with or without Buckpasser. This cross directly produced Stop the Music, and spread out over time produced SWs Silver Buck, Goodbye Halo, Hurontario, Personal Draw, Dust Bucket (by Spend a Buck!), South Vagancia (ARG), South March (ARG), etc. Bounding Basque's best offspring (and only millionaire) was from a Halo mare. Spend a Buck also has a stakes-placed filly from a Roberto mare. Bringing in Hail to Reason via Halo has been so successful due to the power of Halo's dam Cosmah and Prince John's dam Not Afraid. Not Afraid is the daughter of Banish Fear, who is also the dam of Cosmah's sire Cosmic Bomb.
Grey Dawn II appreciates a return of his damline through Ampola, who is commonly found through Green Dancer's dam blue hen dam Sly Pola by Spy Song. Digging about more in this family, we find another blue hen, Locust Time by Spy Song. Spy Song and Grey Dawn II did not produce any stakes winners that I have found (yet--it's only 8am) but Grey Dawn II over Spy Song produced 3 hard-knocking winners with earnings of $106k, $46k, and $28k (all in the mid 1970s, all with a minimum of 20 starts).
Spend a Buck hails from a branch of Helene de Troie that stayed in France a while longer, then moved to either North or South America. While the descendants of Adargartis are not as well-known (or, perhaps, prolific) as Helene de Troie's other daughter La Troienne, she is still a key ancestor in this pedigree and prime linebreeding target.
I realize that Bounding Basque is not Pico Central, but looking at his pedigree is a useful place to start when analyzing PC's pedigree. Basque has a stakes winner and a stakes placer out of Raja Baba mares. Hmmmm. Down in the land of the southern cross, Spend a Buck has a stakes winner and two winners out of Raja Baba mares.
So, for Pico Central:
*Hail to Reason, particularly through Halo
*Other crosses to Cosmah including Tomsah, Cannonade, La Dame du Lac, etc.
*Other crosses to Banish Fear (Bold Count, Perception, Crystal Water) and Not Afraid
*Green Dancer, Val Danseur, Soviet Lad, and other descendents of Sly Pola
*La Troienne, any way you can get her. Extra credit for her half-sister Adargartis.
*Raja Baba (Is It True, Yes It's True).
*Crimson Saint (Spy Song through Terlingua, Royal Academy, Pancho Villa)
hi austique
Sounds to me like you've really given this some thought, and you raise some good points.
You wrote "...Closing Argument is out for most of my mares with 2 crosses of Mr. P already, but I think he's gutty, consistent horse althought $10,000 does seem a little steep to me for him, but not outlandishly so."
Fair enough...and I understand your comment about the $10k fee...after all he is but a G3 winner (although his Ky Derby second-place finish was quite a performance)...but he was a very good...very competitive...always give 100% kind of racehorse. His pedigree might lack what some might be looking for...but (at the very least) he's interesting.
As for Proud Accolade...his sire is an exceptional individual to look at (grand looking)...but there is something about this guy (PA) that doesn't capture my imagination. You wrote that you "...watched him run some races where he didn't even seem to try." Agreed...some of his efforts (or lack therof) seemed to be as you described.
Moving on to Bandini (chuckling)...it's probably too easy (and maybe unfair) to point fingers and laugh in advance of the spin machine starting to disseminate the script. The (expected) in-your-face strategy (for lack of a better description) is arguably so predictable at Coolmore/Ashford that it's lost it's magic (for me anyway)...I grimace to think of the force-feeding that we might be in store for (re: Bandini and others) and I expect that 'dini's stud fee will be set higher rather than lower, and that he'll be booked to 200+- mares etc etc etc. You know the drill. Regardless...he does have appeal and could be an interesting prospect. If 'dini (cute don't you think) is ultimately what you're looking for...best of luck to you.
Indian Ocean...BIG pedigree...G3 winner...G2 placed...never worse than third ever...career short-circuited by an injury after five starts. I suggest that if he's tagged with an appealing stud fee and passes muster...he could be a very good selection. He seems to bring plenty to the table...and could be a very interesting prospect.
It'll probably come down to the physical evaluations and the stud fees. After all...each of the aforementioned exposed some real talent and the pedigrees are what they are. I sense that the one that might have gone on to be a real star though (had he not had a career-ending injury) was Indian Ocean. He seemed to have a HUGE future ahead of him.
Getting back to Pico for a moment...although his sire Spend A Buck has had some opportunities to come up with a quality son at stud, arguably he hasn't. To me that places a cloud over him...hmmm.
As for the others...Closing Argument (by Successful Appeal)...Proud Accolade (by Yes It's True)...Indian Ocean (by Stormy Atlantic) and Bandini (by Fusaichi Pegasus), none of these guys are by proven sires-of-sires. Not proven in the sense that they're successes or flops (ala Spend A Buck...am I being too harsh) but rather because they're too young to have sons that have sired horses of racing age yet. That being said...I expect that a good case might be made for all of their sires (to have success as sires-of-sires).
I believe that Successful Appeal (sire of Closing Argument) is the freak aberration (meant to be high praise) sire...Stormy Atlantic (sire of Indian Ocean) has a HUGE pedigree and has experienced success, and his future seems to be very bright (especially with his first Ky crops on the near horizon)...Yes It's True (sire of Proud Accolade) is a grand-looking horse that's proving to be a nice sire, but his pedigree and his sire (Is It True) leaves me somewhat cold (for lack of a better description). As for FuPeg, he's a stallion that's been afforded a HUGE opportunity both quantity and quantity-wise, and he's had success including some G1 winners (although his percentages are nothing to write home about...at least from my perspective anyway, not based on a $150k stud fee).
As you know...trying to keep everything in perspective is important in the evaluation process...and sometimes the barrage of 'stuff' from Coolmore (or whoever for that matter) might muddy the waters (or cloud the facts etc).
That being said...FuPeg's success as a sire-of-sires is not something that advertising and spin can make happen. In that category he's on his own. For comparison's sake, arguably Fusaichi Pegasus' female family is trumped by Stormy Atlantic's, although I give FuPeg the edge in the sire category because he's by the GREAT sire-of-sires Mr Prospector, who in my opinion trumps Storm Cat as a sire-of-sires.
Reality is though, I expect a strong case could be made that Indian Ocean has license to be a successful sire (possibly moreso than Closing Argument, Proud Accolade, Pico Central and maybe even Bandini)...although I expect a very strong case could be made for Bandini...who (for what it's worth) is out of a half-sister to Stormy Atlantic...interesting.
I suggest it's probably wise (during the process of creating a short list of freshman sires worthy of consideration for 2006) to remember that (historically), some of the young Florida stallions have a way of sneaking up on you and accomplishing BIG things.
It'll be interesting to see how it all unfolds.
Best to you.
Respectfully
Sounds to me like you've really given this some thought, and you raise some good points.
You wrote "...Closing Argument is out for most of my mares with 2 crosses of Mr. P already, but I think he's gutty, consistent horse althought $10,000 does seem a little steep to me for him, but not outlandishly so."
Fair enough...and I understand your comment about the $10k fee...after all he is but a G3 winner (although his Ky Derby second-place finish was quite a performance)...but he was a very good...very competitive...always give 100% kind of racehorse. His pedigree might lack what some might be looking for...but (at the very least) he's interesting.
As for Proud Accolade...his sire is an exceptional individual to look at (grand looking)...but there is something about this guy (PA) that doesn't capture my imagination. You wrote that you "...watched him run some races where he didn't even seem to try." Agreed...some of his efforts (or lack therof) seemed to be as you described.
Moving on to Bandini (chuckling)...it's probably too easy (and maybe unfair) to point fingers and laugh in advance of the spin machine starting to disseminate the script. The (expected) in-your-face strategy (for lack of a better description) is arguably so predictable at Coolmore/Ashford that it's lost it's magic (for me anyway)...I grimace to think of the force-feeding that we might be in store for (re: Bandini and others) and I expect that 'dini's stud fee will be set higher rather than lower, and that he'll be booked to 200+- mares etc etc etc. You know the drill. Regardless...he does have appeal and could be an interesting prospect. If 'dini (cute don't you think) is ultimately what you're looking for...best of luck to you.
Indian Ocean...BIG pedigree...G3 winner...G2 placed...never worse than third ever...career short-circuited by an injury after five starts. I suggest that if he's tagged with an appealing stud fee and passes muster...he could be a very good selection. He seems to bring plenty to the table...and could be a very interesting prospect.
It'll probably come down to the physical evaluations and the stud fees. After all...each of the aforementioned exposed some real talent and the pedigrees are what they are. I sense that the one that might have gone on to be a real star though (had he not had a career-ending injury) was Indian Ocean. He seemed to have a HUGE future ahead of him.
Getting back to Pico for a moment...although his sire Spend A Buck has had some opportunities to come up with a quality son at stud, arguably he hasn't. To me that places a cloud over him...hmmm.
As for the others...Closing Argument (by Successful Appeal)...Proud Accolade (by Yes It's True)...Indian Ocean (by Stormy Atlantic) and Bandini (by Fusaichi Pegasus), none of these guys are by proven sires-of-sires. Not proven in the sense that they're successes or flops (ala Spend A Buck...am I being too harsh) but rather because they're too young to have sons that have sired horses of racing age yet. That being said...I expect that a good case might be made for all of their sires (to have success as sires-of-sires).
I believe that Successful Appeal (sire of Closing Argument) is the freak aberration (meant to be high praise) sire...Stormy Atlantic (sire of Indian Ocean) has a HUGE pedigree and has experienced success, and his future seems to be very bright (especially with his first Ky crops on the near horizon)...Yes It's True (sire of Proud Accolade) is a grand-looking horse that's proving to be a nice sire, but his pedigree and his sire (Is It True) leaves me somewhat cold (for lack of a better description). As for FuPeg, he's a stallion that's been afforded a HUGE opportunity both quantity and quantity-wise, and he's had success including some G1 winners (although his percentages are nothing to write home about...at least from my perspective anyway, not based on a $150k stud fee).
As you know...trying to keep everything in perspective is important in the evaluation process...and sometimes the barrage of 'stuff' from Coolmore (or whoever for that matter) might muddy the waters (or cloud the facts etc).
That being said...FuPeg's success as a sire-of-sires is not something that advertising and spin can make happen. In that category he's on his own. For comparison's sake, arguably Fusaichi Pegasus' female family is trumped by Stormy Atlantic's, although I give FuPeg the edge in the sire category because he's by the GREAT sire-of-sires Mr Prospector, who in my opinion trumps Storm Cat as a sire-of-sires.
Reality is though, I expect a strong case could be made that Indian Ocean has license to be a successful sire (possibly moreso than Closing Argument, Proud Accolade, Pico Central and maybe even Bandini)...although I expect a very strong case could be made for Bandini...who (for what it's worth) is out of a half-sister to Stormy Atlantic...interesting.
I suggest it's probably wise (during the process of creating a short list of freshman sires worthy of consideration for 2006) to remember that (historically), some of the young Florida stallions have a way of sneaking up on you and accomplishing BIG things.
It'll be interesting to see how it all unfolds.
Best to you.
Respectfully
F.O.S.,
I promise to try to be nice to Bandini Actually, Coolmore scares me to death especially after watching some of Thunder Gulch's progeny sell at Keenland 
. You can't breed books that large and expect to maintain quality. JMHO.
Florida has definitely been a hotbed for first year sires, but with the seemingly large numbers of new studs coming in next year breeding to a first year sire may be like playing Twister in a mine field. You've got a lot of lightbulb runners (off, on, off, on) and quite a few by sires not really known for siring stallions or just unproven in that arena. Very confusing. Not to mention the paltry number of starts many of them have. Alas the hunt goes on.
I promise to try to be nice to Bandini
Actually, Coolmore scares me to death especially after watching some of Thunder Gulch's progeny sell at Keenland . You can't breed books that large and expect to maintain quality. JMHO.
Florida has definitely been a hotbed for first year sires, but with the seemingly large numbers of new studs coming in next year breeding to a first year sire may be like playing Twister in a mine field. You've got a lot of lightbulb runners (off, on, off, on) and quite a few by sires not really known for siring stallions or just unproven in that arena. Very confusing. Not to mention the paltry number of starts many of them have. Alas the hunt goes on.