Tiznow/Contrive

[Heidilady]

Sometimes you see a mare bred back to a stallion over and over again because the match it so good (Mahubah and Fair Play for example...Cee's Tizzy and Cee's Song for a modern reference) or sometimes even if a horse worthy of "great" comes out of it, the mare never goes back to the sire.

In the case of Contrive, I know the Lewises were the ones that got Folklore from Tiznow and then sold her but why the Silver Charm, Orientate, Pleasantly Perfect trail...it was before they sold Silver Charm so I guess they wanted to support him with an up and coming mare. Granted it's not til now that they found the match worked out well but do you think if Folklore gets the BC Juvenile Fillies that Contrive's new owners (well new as of a couple years ago) would send her back to Tiznow? Esp. if Folklore's precocious AND likely to do well at long distances..they'd wet themselves if they got a colt with that.

She's apparently a nice Storm Cat mare (G1 winner from her first foal says something) and I'm sure they'd love to send her to a variety of stallions but it just got me to thinking that it'd be great for Tiznow to get a mare like her sent back to him. Sign of confidence as it were plus good for him to get more top Storm Cat mares in the future since this one worked well. And wouldn't YOU want to breed a full-sibling of a G1 winner even if you were just going to sell it at Keeneland?

[LSB]

Two days ago a filly sold at Keeneland that was by Tiznow and out of Contrive's full sister, Queen's Lady. It will be interesting to see how that filly (who has been referred to as a "full-blooded sister to Folklore) does next year.

[Heidilady]

Hey thanks LSB, that sounds like one to watch.

I got a great name for her. Tiz Noble. Eh? Eh?

[Mahubah]

How about "Now I'm Queen"?

[louis finochio]

The mistake many breeders make is when they breed their own home mares to their home stallions. A high % of those home mares are all related to the same families, and if their home stallion dosent nick with those families those breeders have shot their self in the foot.

Better to breed a variety of different sire lines to see which sire lines are working through those mares.

When you hit a nick that produces many superior runners, you will breed back to that successful cross in the hope of producing those superior runners.

[sb]

The mistake many breeders make is when they breed their own home mares to their home stallions. A high % of those home mares are all related to the same families, and if their home stallion dosent nick with those families those breeders have shot their self in the foot.

Better to breed a variety of different sire lines to see which sire lines are working through those mares.

When you hit a nick that produces many superior runners, you will breed back to that successful cross in the hope of producing those superior runners.

While I would have to go back and collect proof for my statement, I suggest reading about some of the old breeders who were quite successful standing their own stallions and breeding them to their own mares for the most part. Two of those people were the owners of Man O'War and in particular the owner of Black Toney, both immensely successful stallions. I'm sure culling of broodmares was done judiciously, but as I said, I'd have to go back and re-read the details. The nethods by which people choose breedings today are quite different and more oriented toward making those $$ than to produce race/ breeding horses [both mares and stallions] for the future. For one thing, no one will really know what the future of TB racing will be. The biggest and most imminent changes-- so it seems-- will perhaps be in non-US countries, in particular Europe.

SB

[louis finochio]

When a TB breeder uses outside stallions to breed to a % of his mares he is playing the field and covering all bases.

The TB that are not using outside stallions are going against the %.

If your home stallion becomes a below average BMS you are at a dead end road with your fillies.

By using outside stallions you will reap the harvest when the outside stallion becomes a top BMS.

[pembroke]

Louis,...I bought a mare last year that was a reject from a program like you discribed. They bred only to stallions they owned shares in. She didn't "nick" so she was considered a reject. Ironically, the last foal she produced for them turned out to be a runner. I bred the mare on the Theatrical/Mr P nick and sure hope it works out. On the other hand, people who really know their pedigrees and work and study hard, have been very successful this way.

[sb]

When a TB breeder uses outside stallions to breed to a % of his mares he is playing the field and covering all bases.

The TB that are not using outside stallions are going against the %.

If your home stallion becomes a below average BMS you are at a dead end road with your fillies.

SB response: I know of a number of breeders within regional breeding programs who purchase mares, breed them to their local stallion and the offer the in foal mare for sale. Actually, most breeding operations practice that today.
Red River Farms in La had a whole bunch of mares up for sale at Starquine in foal to thier stallions. This is practically the only way to get a baby by a La stallion accredited in another state by foaling it out elsewhere


*By using outside stallions you will reap the harvest when the
outside stallion becomes a top BMS.

*

This is true, of course, but you can also reap the failures, and unfortunaely, the % of failing stallions is much higher than the succesful ones, and the latter are more often than not very high to begin with.
Take Tiznow as an example. I would venture saying that the average breeder cannot afford t$30K stud fee + whatever it costs in additoin to raise the baby up and get it situated for the best possible outcome.

SB

[louis finochio]

You can send some of your mares to stallions that are already top BMS and a few to freshman sires that have a bottom line of GR SW thru out their pedigree.

When you select a stallion for your mare on crosses that have worked before, it is no guarantee that the cross will work again, but it is better to breed to what works than those crosses that dont.

[austique]

Louis is dead on. I have a mare who was in a program where they only bred to their own studs. Both her sire line and her dam line have a strong affinity for Northern Dancer line stallions who love turf. Needless to say she never saw an ND line sire with her previous owner. She will next year though

[skeenan]

This is interesting, as I'm currently reading Native Dancer: The Grey Ghost: Hero of a Golden Age by John Eisenberg.

I don't have the book in front of me to quote, but he discusses how Vanderbilt bred many of his mares to Discovery and didn't have much luck overall producing a Derby horse. He revamped his breeding program by hiring a gentleman from Kentucky (whose name I can't recall) and he recommended Polynesian... and the rest is history, as they say...

Geisha was by Discovery, and didn't do much on the track (according to the database) but yet produced the "big one" when bred to Polynesian...

(And if I remember correctly, Miss Disco was also one of his Discovery mares and that she was sold while he was abroad... ouch! There's one anyone would hate to lose...)

It's all pretty interesting to me... and my humble opinion after a year of looking at pedigrees, etc., is that a lot of it is hindsight when it comes to stallions... it takes time going by before one can look back and really see what kind of impact a particular stallion had as a sire (and/or broodmare sire)... and in retrospect, some will have been lucky in their breeding decisions, and some not so lucky...

To me, it's all one big crap shoot... one can spend a small fortune and end up with nothing, or breed to a "lesser" or small-time stallion (i.e., non-commercial, weak race record, etc.) and end up with a stakes winner seemingly out of nowhere... or a horse with a lousy pedigree on paper is winning races, despite what the pedigree is saying...

You just never know!
It's what fuels my dreams and discourages me at the same time...

[louis finochio]

To Skeenan: Just what you said is what drives TB breeders up a wall.

If this game was that easy by breeding all those GR SW to GR SW the challenge would be zilch. But its not thats why the breeding game is the most difficult to master.

I learned long ago to purchase mares that have bred nothing but winners, and breed them to stallions that have out produced their mares by a country mile.

[skeenan]

I learned long ago to purchase mares that have bred nothing but winners, and breed them to stallions that have out produced their mares by a country mile.

That's the best you can start with, that's for sure... and cross your fingers!

From looking in the database, Ogden Phipps seems to have figured breeding out quite well... I see his name listed under many successful horses! I used one of his as a nick study for Bell-- Salute, out of Personal Ensign...

What I wonder is, when Mr. Prospector retired, did anyone predict his incredible success as a sire/broodmare sire? Or did his potency show over time?

[louis finochio]

It is impossible to predict how any stallion will become an A B C stallion.

You would have more of a chance to find a needle in a haystack, than you would be to predict the next Mr. P.

Let the TB do the talking and we will listen to what they are saying, as many are called but few are chosen.