Cape Canaveral
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brooke
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Cape Canaveral
does CC have anything in his pedigree to suggest any sucess from his daughters as broodmares?
There will be discouraging times. But a life without horses;
Now that's discouraging.
Now that's discouraging.
Hi Brooke,
I'd add to FOS' comments that Cape Canaveral has a great female family and he himself was a fast horse, but with bad wheels and conformational flaws and unsound.
If you take a look at Cape Canveral's page in the Stallion Register you'll see that he's half to GOLDEN ATTRACTION (chapion filly) and full to CAPE TOWN ((G1), sire). Both Cape Town and Cape Canaveral had limited success in 2005.
Use care in selecting any mare by him, comformation will probably be very important. I'd also breed any of his daughters to stallions who are correct up front and those without a history of getting unsoundness in their foals.
Good luck,
Pete
I'd add to FOS' comments that Cape Canaveral has a great female family and he himself was a fast horse, but with bad wheels and conformational flaws and unsound.
If you take a look at Cape Canveral's page in the Stallion Register you'll see that he's half to GOLDEN ATTRACTION (chapion filly) and full to CAPE TOWN ((G1), sire). Both Cape Town and Cape Canaveral had limited success in 2005.
Use care in selecting any mare by him, comformation will probably be very important. I'd also breed any of his daughters to stallions who are correct up front and those without a history of getting unsoundness in their foals.
Good luck,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
It probably depends on the female side of the pedigree, and not just on CC himself. Clive Harper's analysis (The Thoroughbred Broodmare Book; The Thoroughbred Breeder's Handbook) indicates that good broodmares, generally, have both types of filly factor duplications in their pedigrees. That is, a good broodmare will have inbreeding/linebreeding to a dam via a son and daughter, and will have inbreeding/linebreeding to a sire via two daughters. He defines filly factors as duplications involving more females than males, and colt factors as duplications with more males than females.
Interestingly, none of Cape Canaveral's top female runners, Launch Sequence, Angel Trumpet, Megascape or Roving Angel have both of the two types of filly factor combinations in their pedigrees. I noticed that Overbrook has a CC mare in next week's sale, hip 1873, named Space Cruise, who won one race. That mare has both types of filly factors, and would be an interesting broodmare candidate - based on this simple analysis alone, all other things being equal. (note; I have no interest in this mare, I looked at her because she was the only CC mare in the upcoming sale.)
Interestingly, none of Cape Canaveral's top female runners, Launch Sequence, Angel Trumpet, Megascape or Roving Angel have both of the two types of filly factor combinations in their pedigrees. I noticed that Overbrook has a CC mare in next week's sale, hip 1873, named Space Cruise, who won one race. That mare has both types of filly factors, and would be an interesting broodmare candidate - based on this simple analysis alone, all other things being equal. (note; I have no interest in this mare, I looked at her because she was the only CC mare in the upcoming sale.)
Hi Fox,
I'm assuming that you refer to Cape Canaveral's conformation flaws and whether he passes them on?
I'd discount him getting these traits from his distaff side and would place them more at the feet of Mr. Prospector. His first 3 dams are exceptionally high SW percentage producers and most of their foals run and win - not always with a lot of races (save Key To The Moon) but generally with more success and races than Cape Canaveral had. In THIS family, he's an underachiever.
Clive Harper's observations are noted and are probably as much a factor of breeding techniques and availability in the past as any real trend. The observation pool was built on a substantially smaller number of ancestors so it was more difficult to avoid some patterning in pedigrees along these lines and techniques used by Broussac (amongst others) tended to cross closer every other generation leading to more line bred patterns.
Clive speaks of pedigree content - who and where ancestors appear in the pedigree and his observations about line breeding fall into line with that thinking.
There's a greater aspect more closely linked to genetics of Dominance, Transparency and Transition. These in turn are linked to what we see as the basic nature families to be colt or filly oriented.
Dominant mares express more of themselves while transparent mares allow more expression of the stallion. In the case of Cape Canaveral the speed and knees of Mr. Prospector seem to have been well expressed.
Seaside Attraction’s sons seem to fall into the pattern of sire ½ brothers where racing class is linked to siring success. Cape Town, Cape Canaveral and Mercer Mill is the order that they were on the track and at stud, just as is the case with A.P Indy, Summer Squall and Honor Grades (half and full siblings as sires was recently discussed on another thread).
Personally, I wouldn’t go after a daughter of Cape Canaveral but if I had one or one with special qualities cam along I’d live the horse – perhaps even grow to like the situation
Regards,
Pete
I'm assuming that you refer to Cape Canaveral's conformation flaws and whether he passes them on?
I'd discount him getting these traits from his distaff side and would place them more at the feet of Mr. Prospector. His first 3 dams are exceptionally high SW percentage producers and most of their foals run and win - not always with a lot of races (save Key To The Moon) but generally with more success and races than Cape Canaveral had. In THIS family, he's an underachiever.
Clive Harper's observations are noted and are probably as much a factor of breeding techniques and availability in the past as any real trend. The observation pool was built on a substantially smaller number of ancestors so it was more difficult to avoid some patterning in pedigrees along these lines and techniques used by Broussac (amongst others) tended to cross closer every other generation leading to more line bred patterns.
Clive speaks of pedigree content - who and where ancestors appear in the pedigree and his observations about line breeding fall into line with that thinking.
There's a greater aspect more closely linked to genetics of Dominance, Transparency and Transition. These in turn are linked to what we see as the basic nature families to be colt or filly oriented.
Dominant mares express more of themselves while transparent mares allow more expression of the stallion. In the case of Cape Canaveral the speed and knees of Mr. Prospector seem to have been well expressed.
Seaside Attraction’s sons seem to fall into the pattern of sire ½ brothers where racing class is linked to siring success. Cape Town, Cape Canaveral and Mercer Mill is the order that they were on the track and at stud, just as is the case with A.P Indy, Summer Squall and Honor Grades (half and full siblings as sires was recently discussed on another thread).
Personally, I wouldn’t go after a daughter of Cape Canaveral but if I had one or one with special qualities cam along I’d live the horse – perhaps even grow to like the situation
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
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George William Smith
- Restricted Stakes Winner
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Cape Canaveral and Cape Town
Considering the number of stallions that fail outright at stud, Cape Canaveral and Cape Town had not a bad year in 2005 and for the stud fee did a heck of a lot better than most. Period.
Also looking along the tail-female line I note that the last four sires attached to it were not too shabby as broodmare sires [Mr. P., Seattle Slew, Key To The Mint and Quadrangle., last three dams were SW's and Stake producers seems to give them both a decent shot as broodmare sires. One must always remember however, that stallions fail all the time with wonderful pedigrees like this and it is a tough, tough game.
Also looking along the tail-female line I note that the last four sires attached to it were not too shabby as broodmare sires [Mr. P., Seattle Slew, Key To The Mint and Quadrangle., last three dams were SW's and Stake producers seems to give them both a decent shot as broodmare sires. One must always remember however, that stallions fail all the time with wonderful pedigrees like this and it is a tough, tough game.
Hi George,
I think you missed my point.
I was speaking of the brothers, Cape Town, Cape Canaveral and Mercer Mill in context with each other. As half siblings they support the postulate that their success as stallions will tend to follow their success on the track. I never gave an opinion about how they are doing at stud.
I like Cape Canaveral's genetics but I don't like the possibility of any persistent conformational flaw - thus my comment that I wouldn't 'go after' one of his daughters. If I had or acquired on I'd work with her carefully and as I said "might grow to like it."
The best harbinger of potential as a broodmare sire is siring success and the quality of books that a stallion has had. Mr. Prospector, Dixieland Band, Danzig and others coupled siring success with better books and over time that translated into their ascendency on the broodmare sire list. Gone West has been said to be underachieving as a broodmare sire but I expect that perception will change as the mares foaled from better books continue to impact his results.
Seaside Attraction is a special broodmare of sires since she has 3 sons that have gotten graded stakes winners but I can't agree that Cape Town and Cape Canaveral had good years. I don't think they can or should be compared to the multitudes of stallions that enter service, rather they must be evaluated against their peers, other stallions in the $10k - $15k range. Neither augmented their reputation and I believe both lost some commercial appeal and that's the bottom line in having a successful year for a KY stallion.
We both know that they will go as far as their high profile horses take them and Cape Canaveral has, to date, none while Cape Town's are all fillies. Both now need Ric Waldman Water Wings (c) and I see 2005 as a treading water year for them. Overbrook tends to hold onto their stallions longer than other farms before relocating them so Cape Canaveral probably has more time but he's moved into perilous territory. Effectively to date he has been a racehorse sire whose 2yos haven't raced on with much success and that's not the reputation that will keep him in KY.
Hope you had happy holidays,
Pete
I think you missed my point.
I was speaking of the brothers, Cape Town, Cape Canaveral and Mercer Mill in context with each other. As half siblings they support the postulate that their success as stallions will tend to follow their success on the track. I never gave an opinion about how they are doing at stud.
I like Cape Canaveral's genetics but I don't like the possibility of any persistent conformational flaw - thus my comment that I wouldn't 'go after' one of his daughters. If I had or acquired on I'd work with her carefully and as I said "might grow to like it."
The best harbinger of potential as a broodmare sire is siring success and the quality of books that a stallion has had. Mr. Prospector, Dixieland Band, Danzig and others coupled siring success with better books and over time that translated into their ascendency on the broodmare sire list. Gone West has been said to be underachieving as a broodmare sire but I expect that perception will change as the mares foaled from better books continue to impact his results.
Seaside Attraction is a special broodmare of sires since she has 3 sons that have gotten graded stakes winners but I can't agree that Cape Town and Cape Canaveral had good years. I don't think they can or should be compared to the multitudes of stallions that enter service, rather they must be evaluated against their peers, other stallions in the $10k - $15k range. Neither augmented their reputation and I believe both lost some commercial appeal and that's the bottom line in having a successful year for a KY stallion.
We both know that they will go as far as their high profile horses take them and Cape Canaveral has, to date, none while Cape Town's are all fillies. Both now need Ric Waldman Water Wings (c) and I see 2005 as a treading water year for them. Overbrook tends to hold onto their stallions longer than other farms before relocating them so Cape Canaveral probably has more time but he's moved into perilous territory. Effectively to date he has been a racehorse sire whose 2yos haven't raced on with much success and that's not the reputation that will keep him in KY.
Hope you had happy holidays,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
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George William Smith
- Restricted Stakes Winner
- Posts: 756
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:48 pm
- Location: Edmonton, Alberta
- Contact:
Cape Canaveral
Hi Pete:
I had great holidays, though way too much work afterward.
However, that said, no doubt, you and I hold diammetrically opposed viewpoints of what constitutes success. I think both more than held their own.
In fact, I really don't like your viewpoint at all, because too many hold it, not that it is yours because everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
Your viewpoint to me lends breeders always to seek new young sires since the older ones in their opinion almost always [with the exception of 5 or 10] are failing to hold the spotlight with their top runners.
It has been my experience that such breeders end up with foals by worse stallions that Cape Canaveral or Cape Town.
They continue to seek the home run stallion and instead swing and miss. Period. But they do power the commercial machine in Kentucky, which requires new stallions to attract large books.
For years, I supported Dynaformer and Smart Strike and heard time after time the same type of comments I am hearing about Cape Town and Cape Canaveral....Well it only took Dynaformer and Smart Strike how many years before there stud fees were raise to the where it is now, because the farm probably figured they would price themselves out of mares.
Pete: whether you or I like it, 1% of the people in this business controls the attitudes of whether stallions are successful or not so we will not make a difference, but we could if horses that pay their way on the track are the focus instead of how much money a first year sire's foal will bring in the sales ring and can those sales numbers be kept high.
boy that was a long runon sentence. LOL
I had great holidays, though way too much work afterward.
However, that said, no doubt, you and I hold diammetrically opposed viewpoints of what constitutes success. I think both more than held their own.
In fact, I really don't like your viewpoint at all, because too many hold it, not that it is yours because everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
Your viewpoint to me lends breeders always to seek new young sires since the older ones in their opinion almost always [with the exception of 5 or 10] are failing to hold the spotlight with their top runners.
It has been my experience that such breeders end up with foals by worse stallions that Cape Canaveral or Cape Town.
They continue to seek the home run stallion and instead swing and miss. Period. But they do power the commercial machine in Kentucky, which requires new stallions to attract large books.
For years, I supported Dynaformer and Smart Strike and heard time after time the same type of comments I am hearing about Cape Town and Cape Canaveral....Well it only took Dynaformer and Smart Strike how many years before there stud fees were raise to the where it is now, because the farm probably figured they would price themselves out of mares.
Pete: whether you or I like it, 1% of the people in this business controls the attitudes of whether stallions are successful or not so we will not make a difference, but we could if horses that pay their way on the track are the focus instead of how much money a first year sire's foal will bring in the sales ring and can those sales numbers be kept high.
boy that was a long runon sentence. LOL
Hi Pete,
Thanks for your very thoughtful comments on this topic.
In my post, I was wondering if there are specific pedigree attributes (e.g. more filly factors than colt factors?) which would help us choose one mare over another as a broodmare prospect. I wasn’t attempting to address the more general question of how Cape Canaveral may do as a broodmare sire.
Your point about how mares express themselves, and how this may be more important than linebreeding patterns is interesting. Other than observing the stallion, as you have done with Cape Canaveral, do you think there is anything in a stallion’s dam’s pedigree, or in the stallion’s pedigree itself, that indicates if his dam will be dominant or transparent, and hence, if his chances as a broodmare sire will be good or not? Could some of Harper’s indications help point out the dominant mares?
If I understand your comments correctly, you are saying that you believe the best predictors of a good broodmare sire are: (1) racing ability, (2) producing ability, (3) the sire’s dam was a good producer, and (4) the sire’s dam is dominant in how she expresses herself. All make perfect sense, I just don’t know how to determine (4).
Thanks for your very thoughtful comments on this topic.
In my post, I was wondering if there are specific pedigree attributes (e.g. more filly factors than colt factors?) which would help us choose one mare over another as a broodmare prospect. I wasn’t attempting to address the more general question of how Cape Canaveral may do as a broodmare sire.
Your point about how mares express themselves, and how this may be more important than linebreeding patterns is interesting. Other than observing the stallion, as you have done with Cape Canaveral, do you think there is anything in a stallion’s dam’s pedigree, or in the stallion’s pedigree itself, that indicates if his dam will be dominant or transparent, and hence, if his chances as a broodmare sire will be good or not? Could some of Harper’s indications help point out the dominant mares?
If I understand your comments correctly, you are saying that you believe the best predictors of a good broodmare sire are: (1) racing ability, (2) producing ability, (3) the sire’s dam was a good producer, and (4) the sire’s dam is dominant in how she expresses herself. All make perfect sense, I just don’t know how to determine (4).