Point Given

[chicago78]

I'm intrigued. He had a horrid freshman year, but was not expected to have success with two year olds, anyway. He has two horses that are improving, (Great Point and Point Determined) that are in very good hands, and will be running in some of the big derby preps in the next few weeks. Am i crazy?

[austique]

I'm just not sure he'll ever put it fully together and I think he's way overpriced at this juncture although they will consider foal shares on him. He was a very talented racehorse, but he's butt ugly (sorry that was the nicest term I could use). I know pretty doesn't win races, but I think he's flawed enough its an issue. The mare would have to be perfect confirmationally before I would even consider it.

Of course now, he will sire a Triple Crown winning offspring

[Nerd]

Could it be that Point Given is an example of an alternative conformational type that works (evidently, since he was certainly a good racehorse)? Sort of like an alternate solution, a second local minimum on a fitness landscape? We tend to be conditioned to find horses with conventionally 'good' conformation 'attractive' and ones who differ from that standard 'ugly,' but that sort of reasoning assumes that we are perfect judges of the correlation between conformation and performance.

If this is the case, maybe we shouldn't expect anything out of his offspring if they are bred to look more like the conventional type of TB, because any compromise between the two types will just be an abberation of both.

Eh, maybe I'm just upset that he's not passing on his greatness and trying to justify it.

[louis finochio]

How many sons of Thunder Gulch have been successful sires?

Of those that have made successful stallions, were they early maturing or late maturing?

[austique]

I worded my first post too strong now that I re-read it, but my major issue with him is price. He can't justify it in the sales ring or on the track at this point. Not to say that he will never get it, but right now if you are breeding to race he's such a gamble it wouldn't be worth attempting and if you were breeding to sell he would be feasible only on a foal share. He may just be one of those that ran well at two, but whose offspring need more time.

He is not an attractive animal at all (I'm standing by the butt ugly statement) and he wasn't a particularly sound one and I have a feeling he is getting ready for young sire abandonment (that horrible practice of breeders running for the hills when the first crop doesn't light the world on fire). His sire is also cooling significantly (and now stands for half of Point Given's fee) and I just think at the price he's at now unless you really like to gamble and you think you've got the mare to turn it around, he's a pass.

[chicago78]

He was bred to a very good group of mares in the first two years. I would think there are some quality individuals that have not made it to the races yet, but we'll see. I agree that the current fee of $50,000 is high, but who knows. Don't dispute the ugly comment either, but he can breed a good looking one, and has sired some that have sold very well.

[llbean]

Could it be that Point Given is an example of an alternative conformational type that works (evidently, since he was certainly a good racehorse)? Sort of like an alternate solution, a second local minimum on a fitness landscape? We tend to be conditioned to find horses with conventionally 'good' conformation 'attractive' and ones who differ from that standard 'ugly,' but that sort of reasoning assumes that we are perfect judges of the correlation between conformation and performance.

Hi Nerd,

This is a deep and thought provoking point (and simile) and I admire it.

As a side point, I don't think Point Given himself was well served being run as a 2YO given his size and in my opinion the lack of success in his offspring as 2YOs was to be expected and doesn't really prove anything.

If you look earlier in American Racing History you'll find that Longfellow and Preakness were unusually large horses who were wisely left unraced as 2YOs because of it (ah, the wisdon of the "ancients").

Notably perhaps Longfellow was a fairly good sire and Preakness was never really given a chance on account of being sent to England and getting killed very early in his stud career (he did manage to sire Fiddler though, who defeated the great champion Foxhall in the Alexandra Plate).

-llbean

[halo]

I understand that his current price is $20,000 LFG or $12,500 NG, which is extremely reasonable.

[FOS]

hi guys

I am told that Bob Baffert has a couple of Point Givens that are supposedly training like they might ultimately prove to be VERY good horses. I expect that we'll know soon enough, if that's the case.

Regardless...I suggest that it will take a lot to resurrect even a semblance of confidence in PG as a sire.

He has been such a flop as a sales sire and arguably so unimpressive as a racehorse sire (thus far), that I expect that he'll have to come up with a front-page superstar or two to generate any enthusiasm and/or instill genuine confidence in him as a sire.

He was one heck of a MONSTER racehorse though...and I expect he'll sire some good ones.

I suggest that breeding to him is difficult to recommend...and that a PG fan might be wise to select a good one (if it's out there) at the sales (and possibly pay a bonus if necessary), rather than tieing a mare up for a year with the probability (based on what I've seen) of being disappointed with the result.

Respectfully

[roving boy]

He will surely get the odd, good horse, but Point Determined has been grossly overrated. Great Point may have more potential.

[UmmYeah]

For what it's worth, one of those Baffert-trained colts, Point of Impact, just broke his maiden at Santa Anita today.

[StrawberryFelidos]

I understand that his current price is $20,000 LFG or $12,500 NG, which is extremely reasonable.

According to Three Chimney's website, he is still at a $50,000 stud fee.

[Nerd]

For what it's worth, one of those Baffert-trained colts, Point of Impact, just broke his maiden at Santa Anita today.

...beating Three Points, another PG colt

[hpkingjr]

Point Given is still standing for $50,000.00. You might find a season owner that sells for less privately but the farm has not reduced his listed fee. They have a full page ad in the Blood-Horse this week so it appears they still are optimistic about his chances and future.

[halo]

Let me re-phrase that. I know of several people breeding to him for far far less than his $50,000 published price.