Last year, this guy had 12 or 13 winners, but none were in really good MSW races. However, it seems that he's really coming into his own, early in 2006. There's lots of talk about Point Given being a sire of late developers, but his offspring are still mostly not of good class. Aptitude, on the other hand, has had several good efforts this year: Steppenwolfer, Well Said (who beat Neil Howard trained Brilliant and Jostle's son, Jostled and Jolted in an allowance today), Sky Diving, etc.........
Thus far, no stakes winners ,but I think he'll have one sooner rather than later. Thoughts?
Aptitude - thoughts?
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fastappy
- Starters Handicap
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Aptitude
Juddmonte kept this one, but got rid of Skimming, Hmmmm. 
Thoroughbred review lists Aptitude as one of the worst values for 20K. Sometimes it takes awhile for a stallion to come around and others hit it right off the bat. The numbers listed on T.B. review aren't too encouraging, but then T.B. Review said the same about Atticus, who got High Fly and Stephen Got Even, who got Stevie Wonderboy.
I wouldn't write him off just yet, but a good reason to wait it out, on a new stallion if you're not breeding to sell.
http://www.thoroughbredreview.com/StallionWatch.htm
http://www.juddmonte.com/
Thoroughbred review lists Aptitude as one of the worst values for 20K. Sometimes it takes awhile for a stallion to come around and others hit it right off the bat. The numbers listed on T.B. review aren't too encouraging, but then T.B. Review said the same about Atticus, who got High Fly and Stephen Got Even, who got Stevie Wonderboy.
I wouldn't write him off just yet, but a good reason to wait it out, on a new stallion if you're not breeding to sell.
http://www.thoroughbredreview.com/StallionWatch.htm
http://www.juddmonte.com/
Thanks for pointing out the article; I really don't agree with several of their comments. They neglect to point out that Aptitude was a fairly late developer himself. Other successful Indy sons such as Pulpit and Malibu Moon had high speed and were precocious (though Pulpit didn't start until he was 3); Aptitude was a different sort of horse. I really think Thoroughbred Review should wait until a stallion has had more than one crop running until they judge.
hi Betsy...hi guys
Regarding Aptitude's chances as a sire...I suggest that it might be important (from my perspective anyway) to consider that Northern Dancer (the broodmare sire of Aptitude) has arguably had limited success, at best, as a broodmare-sire of highly successful sires...maybe most notably in North America.
Even Southern Halo (out of a Northern Dancer daughter), who was highly successful in South America, was expected by some to match (or even surpass) his southern hemisphere success when he was moved to stand in North American. He did have some limited success...but was (after a stint) shipped back south of the equator, where he thrived...hmmm.
Numerous sons of Northern Dancer have been the broodmare sires of some very successful sires...but for whatever reason(s), Northern Dancer himself has NOT accomplished much (particularly in NA) as a broodmare sire of highly successful sires. Arguably...Aptitude has yet to show significant signs that he might break the mold.
Clearly Aptitude was a very good racehorse, and undeniably Juddmonte does an excellent job with their horses...but they too might have a young sire, in the case of Aptitude, that might be destined to become not much more than just another ordinary sire out of a direct daughter of Northern Dancer.
On the other hand, Aptitude might be just fine. Certainly the final chapter is not written...but arguably he is not knocking them dead (at least not yet) as a racehorse sire of top-class runners.
Respectfully
Regarding Aptitude's chances as a sire...I suggest that it might be important (from my perspective anyway) to consider that Northern Dancer (the broodmare sire of Aptitude) has arguably had limited success, at best, as a broodmare-sire of highly successful sires...maybe most notably in North America.
Even Southern Halo (out of a Northern Dancer daughter), who was highly successful in South America, was expected by some to match (or even surpass) his southern hemisphere success when he was moved to stand in North American. He did have some limited success...but was (after a stint) shipped back south of the equator, where he thrived...hmmm.
Numerous sons of Northern Dancer have been the broodmare sires of some very successful sires...but for whatever reason(s), Northern Dancer himself has NOT accomplished much (particularly in NA) as a broodmare sire of highly successful sires. Arguably...Aptitude has yet to show significant signs that he might break the mold.
Clearly Aptitude was a very good racehorse, and undeniably Juddmonte does an excellent job with their horses...but they too might have a young sire, in the case of Aptitude, that might be destined to become not much more than just another ordinary sire out of a direct daughter of Northern Dancer.
On the other hand, Aptitude might be just fine. Certainly the final chapter is not written...but arguably he is not knocking them dead (at least not yet) as a racehorse sire of top-class runners.
Respectfully
Hi FOS
I think it's way too early to judge Aptitude as a sire. It's probably not too early to say that he's not going to sire precocious horses, but anything else is premature. It's barely 2 months into 2006 and I have pointed out some promising horses of his. All it takes is a couple of good wins or performances in stakes and things will look rosy. Given that AP Indy sires many late developing horses, I would hope that breeders would take that into consideration when judging Aptitude's offspring.
I think it's way too early to judge Aptitude as a sire. It's probably not too early to say that he's not going to sire precocious horses, but anything else is premature. It's barely 2 months into 2006 and I have pointed out some promising horses of his. All it takes is a couple of good wins or performances in stakes and things will look rosy. Given that AP Indy sires many late developing horses, I would hope that breeders would take that into consideration when judging Aptitude's offspring.
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chicago78
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My opinion on Aptitude is very similar to my opinoin on Point Given. Give him some time. He's been bred to a fantastic group of mares. Working in Aptitudes favor is that Juddmonte bred a bunch of very high quality mares to him, and obviously are keeping them as racehorses. They aren't going to be rushed in any way. Also, there isn't much turf racing for two year olds or early three year olds in this country, and if you look at his projeny, a number are inbred to Northern Dancer, so those should move way up on the grass. Aptitude himself was a very good three year old, runner up in the Derby and Belmont, but really distinguished himself as a four year old, winning the Hollywood Gold Cup and Jockey Club Gold Cup.
I personally liked Aptitude alot when he went to stud. You have to. He was an accomplished racehorse and has a beautiful pedigree (even thought I'm not really sold on Indy as a sire of sires). He's not bad looking either. I was a touch disappointed with his slow start even being by A.P. Indy and being a late developer you would have hoped his first winner would have come in this country (even Albert the Great managed that) and you would have hoped that he would have had some runners that would have showed a little more class.
All that being said, like Point Given he shouldn't be discarded just yet. His late development as a racehorse should give him a little cushion and I am very high on Steppenwolfer. I imagine he'll end up like some of A.P. Indy's sons, maddeningly inconsistent because they can't fit the current demands of the market (precocious juveniles). He's got a good book behind him. He will get some good ones.
If I was going to sell a foal by him, he would make me a little nervous at this point. If you are breeding to race, you need to be prepared to wait. The ATR review is short-sighted. You can't judge a horse by one crop, nor can you declare them the second coming.
All that being said, like Point Given he shouldn't be discarded just yet. His late development as a racehorse should give him a little cushion and I am very high on Steppenwolfer. I imagine he'll end up like some of A.P. Indy's sons, maddeningly inconsistent because they can't fit the current demands of the market (precocious juveniles). He's got a good book behind him. He will get some good ones.
If I was going to sell a foal by him, he would make me a little nervous at this point. If you are breeding to race, you need to be prepared to wait. The ATR review is short-sighted. You can't judge a horse by one crop, nor can you declare them the second coming.
I don't have low self-esteem. I have low esteem for everyone else. ~ Daria
hi Betsy
Fair enough...my main concern re: Aptitude is that his dam's-sire, Northern Dancer, has been disappointing (maybe an understatement) as a broodmare sire of highly successful sires, particularly of North American runners. When you consider the opportunities afforded stallions out of Northern Dancer daughters...I expect it's fair to say that broodmare-sire of sires is a category in which Northern Dancer was an underachiever...example: champion Rhythm...OUCH.
Respectfully
Betsy wrote:Hi FOS
I think it's way too early to judge Aptitude as a sire. It's probably not too early to say that he's not going to sire precocious horses, but anything else is premature. It's barely 2 months into 2006 and I have pointed out some promising horses of his. All it takes is a couple of good wins or performances in stakes and things will look rosy. Given that AP Indy sires many late developing horses, I would hope that breeders would take that into consideration when judging Aptitude's offspring.
Fair enough...my main concern re: Aptitude is that his dam's-sire, Northern Dancer, has been disappointing (maybe an understatement) as a broodmare sire of highly successful sires, particularly of North American runners. When you consider the opportunities afforded stallions out of Northern Dancer daughters...I expect it's fair to say that broodmare-sire of sires is a category in which Northern Dancer was an underachiever...example: champion Rhythm...OUCH.
Respectfully
I have tried to talk or think myself into accepting sons of A.P. Indy but overall I just cant, like mentioned above they are very hit or miss as are most Seattle Slew sons as well. The thing with most Indy's to me are their lack of speed as Aptitude had nota. Steppenwolfer is a nice horse & I expect him to win Monday in the Southwest but still I just cant get crazy about his sire nor overall his sire line.
TomFool wrote:I have tried to talk or think myself into accepting sons of A.P. Indy but overall I just cant, like mentioned above they are very hit or miss as are most Seattle Slew sons as well. The thing with most Indy's to me are their lack of speed as Aptitude had nota. Steppenwolfer is a nice horse & I expect him to win Monday in the Southwest but still I just cant get crazy about his sire nor overall his sire line.
Did you ever watch Saratoga Gold Cup or the Jockey Club? If you did, you'd have seen Aptitude win with a dazzling move - he blew those races apart with moves that were fun to see. I just won't get suckered into an argument about AP Indy because I feel that most fans just don't like him and frankly, are not fair about his siring abilities. Plus, most fans just want to see pure speed out of their favorites and some Indy's don't have that. There are plenty that have that, however - Indy has sired some very good juveniles, not to mention Pulpit, AP Assay, Old Trieste - brilliant horsess.
We'll part ways about Indy as a sire of sires as well. Pulpit has done very well and so has Malibu Moon. I thought the latter could be very good, but he was mostly unknown as he only made 2 career starts. He also started off in Maryland. Old Trieste has sired some good ones in his limited career and Stephen Got Even has sird a champion and a talented filly in For All We Know. Indy's sons are showing a lot of promise as sires.
Hi FOS
And I'm not foolish enough to ignore Golden Missle's disappointing start or SGE's inconsistency. However, with Pulpit, Indy already has one quite successful son, and I feel certain that Mineshaft will be even better. That's all that sire line needs- a couple of big stallions and some lesser, though solid ones, and the Bold Ruler line will be secure for some more years....
And I'm not foolish enough to ignore Golden Missle's disappointing start or SGE's inconsistency. However, with Pulpit, Indy already has one quite successful son, and I feel certain that Mineshaft will be even better. That's all that sire line needs- a couple of big stallions and some lesser, though solid ones, and the Bold Ruler line will be secure for some more years....
hi Betsy
I expect that Mineshaft has the makings to be a crackerjack sire...
...as for Stephen Got Even, he's a young horse that has now sired a 2-yo champion (of 2005) in recent G1-BC Juvenile winner the Wonderboy...and, as we know, the A.P. Indy son Malibu Moon also sired a G1-winner and 2-yo champion in Declan's Moon (in 2004)...and Old Trieste (also by A.P. Indy) has sired a recent G1-BC Sprint winner (in 2005). Sounds pretty impressive for a couple of young A.P. Indy sons...and I suggest bodes well for API's future as a sire-of-sires.
That said...I am also confident that more A.P. Indy sons (whether near or distant from the top of their classes) will have good chances to be successful also.
One in particular that I've liked for some time now is Full Mandate...a young Florida-based son of A.P. Indy out of G1-winner (on the dirt) and millionaire Clear Mandate. I sense that Full Mandate could prove to be the real deal and I suggest that he's worthy of the HUGE opportunity (at stud) that he's been afforded. You might want to take a look at him, in the flesh, if you have the chance. His feet might be a touch smaller than some might like...but I expect that's the A.P. Indy coming through; other than that he's quite an eyeful...and a lot of horse (from my perspective).
Full Mandate was but a listed stakes-winner going a mile and an eighth (on the dirt) at Arlington Park...but was also a winner from 7f to a mile and a sixteenth. Among the tracks he won at are Churchill and Keeneland, where the competition can be pretty stiff. FM's first three dams are each G1 winners...he was a $3.2 mil yearling and (to my way of thinking) looks like a horse that could have commanded such a sum. He's bred very large books and (for what it's worth) the buzz that I've heard has been consistently positive.
At $5k live, he might be the under-the-radar A.P. Indy stallion...and it wouldn't surprise me to see him in Kentucky in a couple of years.
Respectfully
Betsy wrote:"...I'm not foolish enough to ignore Golden Missle's disappointing start or SGE's inconsistency. However, with Pulpit, Indy already has one quite successful son, and I feel certain that Mineshaft will be even better.
I expect that Mineshaft has the makings to be a crackerjack sire...
...as for Stephen Got Even, he's a young horse that has now sired a 2-yo champion (of 2005) in recent G1-BC Juvenile winner the Wonderboy...and, as we know, the A.P. Indy son Malibu Moon also sired a G1-winner and 2-yo champion in Declan's Moon (in 2004)...and Old Trieste (also by A.P. Indy) has sired a recent G1-BC Sprint winner (in 2005). Sounds pretty impressive for a couple of young A.P. Indy sons...and I suggest bodes well for API's future as a sire-of-sires.
That said...I am also confident that more A.P. Indy sons (whether near or distant from the top of their classes) will have good chances to be successful also.
One in particular that I've liked for some time now is Full Mandate...a young Florida-based son of A.P. Indy out of G1-winner (on the dirt) and millionaire Clear Mandate. I sense that Full Mandate could prove to be the real deal and I suggest that he's worthy of the HUGE opportunity (at stud) that he's been afforded. You might want to take a look at him, in the flesh, if you have the chance. His feet might be a touch smaller than some might like...but I expect that's the A.P. Indy coming through; other than that he's quite an eyeful...and a lot of horse (from my perspective).
Full Mandate was but a listed stakes-winner going a mile and an eighth (on the dirt) at Arlington Park...but was also a winner from 7f to a mile and a sixteenth. Among the tracks he won at are Churchill and Keeneland, where the competition can be pretty stiff. FM's first three dams are each G1 winners...he was a $3.2 mil yearling and (to my way of thinking) looks like a horse that could have commanded such a sum. He's bred very large books and (for what it's worth) the buzz that I've heard has been consistently positive.
At $5k live, he might be the under-the-radar A.P. Indy stallion...and it wouldn't surprise me to see him in Kentucky in a couple of years.
Respectfully
Hi FOS
Yep, small or bad feet are the bane of many an Indy son (his own feet betrayed him on Derby eve), but I just figure you take the bad with the good.
I know you've been quite high on Full Mandate; I'd like to see him for myself. Where is he standing? I'd like to check him out on the farm's website.
There's Jump Start to look forward to (though as others have pointed out, he and his family are terribly unsound...still, he was a very talented colt) and, of course, Mineshaft. That whole family is just brilliant - I'm crossing my fingers with this guy.
Yep, small or bad feet are the bane of many an Indy son (his own feet betrayed him on Derby eve), but I just figure you take the bad with the good.
I know you've been quite high on Full Mandate; I'd like to see him for myself. Where is he standing? I'd like to check him out on the farm's website.
There's Jump Start to look forward to (though as others have pointed out, he and his family are terribly unsound...still, he was a very talented colt) and, of course, Mineshaft. That whole family is just brilliant - I'm crossing my fingers with this guy.