Is there a report that would determine how many yearlings in a given year actually make what they sold for as yearlings - over a period of time?
With so many of the sales seeming inflated, compared to racetrack success, I can't figure out how people make money by their investment - to race?
Seems like the breeders do the best?
Race success from Sales?
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
No. The sales companies, the consignors, and the agents do the best.
Right now, the breeders at the top end of the market are probably doing well. The middle market is tough and the low-end is either okay or brutal.
Pinhooking has been hit and miss, but actually pretty decent, if you have a good eye and stay within a certain "type". Interestingly, the "type" apparently has to be a sales "type" because goodness knows sale profit and pinhook profit are totally disconnected from racing success.
Those simply buying racehorses and will buy at all levels are doing okay... as long as they are staying away from the extreme high prices (and the agent / consignor types). For example... Zayat has done pretty well the last couple years.
Right now, the breeders at the top end of the market are probably doing well. The middle market is tough and the low-end is either okay or brutal.
Pinhooking has been hit and miss, but actually pretty decent, if you have a good eye and stay within a certain "type". Interestingly, the "type" apparently has to be a sales "type" because goodness knows sale profit and pinhook profit are totally disconnected from racing success.
Those simply buying racehorses and will buy at all levels are doing okay... as long as they are staying away from the extreme high prices (and the agent / consignor types). For example... Zayat has done pretty well the last couple years.
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Rokeby Forever
- Darley line
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KAL wrote:For example... Zayat has done pretty well the last couple years.
Hi KAL - for the most part, I agree with what you've written. But as far as Zayat, he has purchased some high priced duds...and he has a long, long way to go before Maimonides justifies that pricetag.
What synthetics are to California racing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU
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chicago78
- Maiden Special Weight
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Everyone, not just Zayat, is going to buy a bunch of duds. There is a trainer in Washington that bought 12 horses off of Darley for like $250,000, that cost a combined $10 million at the yearling sales. They have all been gelded thankfully, and he's doing well with them. Super well bred, with major problems obviously. The hope for a buyer like Coolmore is to be able to come up with a few future stallions every year from the 40 or so yearling colts they buy.
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bdw0617
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Rokeby Forever wrote:KAL wrote:For example... Zayat has done pretty well the last couple years.
Hi KAL - for the most part, I agree with what you've written. But as far as Zayat, he has purchased some high priced duds...and he has a long, long way to go before Maimonides justifies that pricetag.
sadly enough, maimonides made his money back when he broke his maiden. a half to 2 studs already, and by vindication a "hot sire"... he can stand at sutud now and to may detriment, would get mares.
I think, it should be mandated that a report be made every year that links the horses from yearling sales to racing success.
We have all the stats in the world on how Sires=sales prices but It took me about 5 hours of digging to find out how 15 yearlings from Keeneland september sale 2 years ago are doing now, with all the name searching and what not.
It's like they make it hard so you don't make the connection that hey, sales prices don't always equal results.
so that way keenaland and fasig tipton can pat you on the back and make you feel so special when you pay 2 million for a yearling and have blood horse artciles about how great your colt looks, but then go pitch quiet when that horse is in a farm somewhere because he couldn't win a claiming race.
It should be an intergrity report. Just like politians have to dislose where their money comes from and their income, sales outlets sould be mandated to report the successes and failures in a easy to read format to all partons each and every year
"When the solution is simple, God is answering.”
- Einstein
- Einstein
Agreed bdw0617!!
An AEI for farms based on the horses their stallions have bred? And
An AEI for consignors based on ones they've sold?
How about Sales Companies like you mentioned too?
Their doesn't seem to be much accountability for the sales agencies linked to success - and thats got to be backwards!
An AEI for farms based on the horses their stallions have bred? And
An AEI for consignors based on ones they've sold?
How about Sales Companies like you mentioned too?
Their doesn't seem to be much accountability for the sales agencies linked to success - and thats got to be backwards!
The Blood Horse puts out statistics (though they're in small little boxes in some of the issues ) on who the top consignors are with selling horses that have won stakes. They've also done it regarding agents that have bought horses and their stats for stake horses. But not on how their horses have done at the races as a whole.
Some agents and consignors use those stats in their ads.
winds
Some agents and consignors use those stats in their ads.
winds
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bdw0617
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I don't think it is something that should be done. I think it HAS to be done.
The industry cannot be taken seriously without taking fiscial responsability to what goes on at their events.
It peeves me to no end to go to bloodhorse.com and see the the banners of Fisecal Beo winning "another grade 1"... Mr. Greeley "priced at JUST 125k"
they use induindo to make you conclude that "hey, ole betsy here can get me a filly like that, I can be RICH!!"
they push horses like back baby brave, western threads, blackjack rocket, dealer joe, diagree, greeleylikealady and so on, horses that have been nothing but black holes for their owners.
On this very site I can look at a sire's foals, runners, winners and stakes winners. that's not very hard. but put in persepective, let's take AP Indy, who has about a 11% SW out of foals... that is high. But let's look at the other side that doesn't get reported
89% OF HIS OFFSPRING WILL NEVER WIN A STAKES RACE!
wich is why I think it's so im portant to have as much financial data that can be provided. I want to be able to look at each horse that is sold at sales, and see how they do 2-3-4 years from now
in theory a couple of good things will come out of this. First of all, reputation of sales agencies start to be put on the line. they have to now actually do so mething besides dress up and have that guy that talks really fast push up bids. now they have to make sure they sale horses that to the best of their knoweldge, are correcta nd will at least make it to the races. I don't think the probelm is buying bad horses when you think one is good, I think moreso it's buying horses that have no chance in hell of ever seeing the track.
I do not think high end prices will suffer at all.. coolmore and darley could care less, but the mid range sales will be smarter buyer and will not spend as much. However at the same time, eveyrone wins. Because of that, breeders need to make a profit so stallion farms lower prices. Because stallion farms lower prices, curlin is no longer worth 70 million dollars, and stays at the track... it's a domino effect, and a much needed one.
The industry cannot be taken seriously without taking fiscial responsability to what goes on at their events.
It peeves me to no end to go to bloodhorse.com and see the the banners of Fisecal Beo winning "another grade 1"... Mr. Greeley "priced at JUST 125k"
they use induindo to make you conclude that "hey, ole betsy here can get me a filly like that, I can be RICH!!"
they push horses like back baby brave, western threads, blackjack rocket, dealer joe, diagree, greeleylikealady and so on, horses that have been nothing but black holes for their owners.
e Blood Horse puts out statistics (though they're in small little boxes in some of the issues ) on who the top consignors are with selling horses that have won stakes. They've also done it regarding agents that have bought horses and their stats for stake horses. But not on how their horses have done at the races as a whole.
On this very site I can look at a sire's foals, runners, winners and stakes winners. that's not very hard. but put in persepective, let's take AP Indy, who has about a 11% SW out of foals... that is high. But let's look at the other side that doesn't get reported
89% OF HIS OFFSPRING WILL NEVER WIN A STAKES RACE!
wich is why I think it's so im portant to have as much financial data that can be provided. I want to be able to look at each horse that is sold at sales, and see how they do 2-3-4 years from now
in theory a couple of good things will come out of this. First of all, reputation of sales agencies start to be put on the line. they have to now actually do so mething besides dress up and have that guy that talks really fast push up bids. now they have to make sure they sale horses that to the best of their knoweldge, are correcta nd will at least make it to the races. I don't think the probelm is buying bad horses when you think one is good, I think moreso it's buying horses that have no chance in hell of ever seeing the track.
I do not think high end prices will suffer at all.. coolmore and darley could care less, but the mid range sales will be smarter buyer and will not spend as much. However at the same time, eveyrone wins. Because of that, breeders need to make a profit so stallion farms lower prices. Because stallion farms lower prices, curlin is no longer worth 70 million dollars, and stays at the track... it's a domino effect, and a much needed one.
"When the solution is simple, God is answering.”
- Einstein
- Einstein
I've always wondered how agents can actually work for multiple clients and keep all of their interests separate. Let's say you are Buzz Chace, and you've got dozens of people wanting to give up to $200,000 for a nice horse. You see a Curlin-like horse that goes for $175,000. Which one of your clients do you bid for?
What if you saw a horse with an unfashionable pedigree go for $7500 that was an outstanding individual with the look of eagles? Do you buy him for your poorest client or your richest one?
What if you saw a horse with an unfashionable pedigree go for $7500 that was an outstanding individual with the look of eagles? Do you buy him for your poorest client or your richest one?
"When I am on my deathbed, I imagine I will say, 'Thank God I did that'" - Arthur Hancock, on buying back Gato del Sol from Europe after Exceller was killed in a slaughterhouse in Sweden.