We have a mare who foundered while out to be bred. I'm researching like crazy now that we know what we're up against, but I need more info. We were never told that she foundered, just that she got very ill with a virus of some sort and almost died. However, now that's she's back the blacksmith confirmed that she did founder and there has been some bone rotation. She's very uncomfortable and doesn't want to walk much. We are committed to doing all we can for her and would like the best possible outcome/life possible -- hopefully as a broodmare for us.
Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I really, really don't want to put her down.
Founder -- any success stories?
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BridledObsession
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I'm getting those AirShod pads for my two foundered mares. I will let you know. For these gals it has been an odyssey.
The best thing is frequent farrier attention. I also have been giving the worse of the two Next Level Hoof Fluid. You could start out with backwards shoes and squared off toes and go from there. You can block the feet to get the shoes on the first time. If you have a small paddock, you could try leaving her turned out. The more they walk around once the shoes get them comfortable, the better the circulation, etc., and prognosis. A pal of mine with a TWH mare that founders at the drop of a hat swears by Lamina Saver.
The best thing is frequent farrier attention. I also have been giving the worse of the two Next Level Hoof Fluid. You could start out with backwards shoes and squared off toes and go from there. You can block the feet to get the shoes on the first time. If you have a small paddock, you could try leaving her turned out. The more they walk around once the shoes get them comfortable, the better the circulation, etc., and prognosis. A pal of mine with a TWH mare that founders at the drop of a hat swears by Lamina Saver.
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
I have a saddlebred type cross that I have been managing founder issues since 1998. He is the epitome of an easy keeper, gaining weight from sniffing an empty feed bucket. The key word here is manage. The disease is something you cannot cure. My guy is extremely sensitive to green grass, particularly in the early spring and early fall. There are some which say these are times when the grass has higher levels of on-structural carbohydrates (NSC's). I have not had my pasture tested. Instead, I keep him off the pasture during these growth periods. He usually does fine with limited grain and coastal hay.
Clinically, the last x-rays we took (about 3 years ago) showed rotations of >10 degrees. The tips of the coffin bones at this point were almost penetrating the sole and the vet was warning his prognosis was extremely poor. This was a farrier induced problem caused by taking of too much sole! I have switched farriers and we have been successful at keeping him comfortable and somewhat useful since then. He is sound for routine arena work, trail riding and has been used as a hill-topper for the local fox hunt. I have not x-rayed him recently but I believe there has been some improvement in the rotation. We have eliminated the toe flair at a minimum.
Key points in managing my guy (in no particular order) are:
1.) Avoid known situations that can aggravate laminitis
2.) Short toes!!!!
3.) Long heels
4.) Never trim any sole
5.) Aggressive frog support.
6.) Frequent shoeing
7.) Use a shoe that promotes break over and offers a lot of support.
8.) Lots of communication between the vet, the farrier, and myself.
I prefer shoes which do not restrict movement of the heels. (No heart bars.) I guess I have been managing this issue for nearly 10 years. I have had some bad days but mostly good days. Fortunately, my guy is a trooper. As I am typing this he is galloping across the pasture with my yearlings, we had a cold front move through last night. One of the problems with a laminitic horse is the slightest thing can cause sore feet. Today he is sound. But who knows what tomorrow will bring?
Chuck
Clinically, the last x-rays we took (about 3 years ago) showed rotations of >10 degrees. The tips of the coffin bones at this point were almost penetrating the sole and the vet was warning his prognosis was extremely poor. This was a farrier induced problem caused by taking of too much sole! I have switched farriers and we have been successful at keeping him comfortable and somewhat useful since then. He is sound for routine arena work, trail riding and has been used as a hill-topper for the local fox hunt. I have not x-rayed him recently but I believe there has been some improvement in the rotation. We have eliminated the toe flair at a minimum.
Key points in managing my guy (in no particular order) are:
1.) Avoid known situations that can aggravate laminitis
2.) Short toes!!!!
3.) Long heels
4.) Never trim any sole
5.) Aggressive frog support.
6.) Frequent shoeing
7.) Use a shoe that promotes break over and offers a lot of support.
8.) Lots of communication between the vet, the farrier, and myself.
I prefer shoes which do not restrict movement of the heels. (No heart bars.) I guess I have been managing this issue for nearly 10 years. I have had some bad days but mostly good days. Fortunately, my guy is a trooper. As I am typing this he is galloping across the pasture with my yearlings, we had a cold front move through last night. One of the problems with a laminitic horse is the slightest thing can cause sore feet. Today he is sound. But who knows what tomorrow will bring?
Chuck
Rood and Riddle
Depending on your mares location, try Scott Morrison DVM at Rood and Riddle. Not cheap, about $800.00 to $1,000.00 for the xrays workup and corrective shoeing but we're having success with a Welsh pony. Our little boy will be able to ride her again soon.
He started off with plywood shoes (glue ons) and she is now on an aluminum shoe with pads. This is a very impressive, top of the line, state of the art center for laminitis. Do not accept that nothing can be done.
He started off with plywood shoes (glue ons) and she is now on an aluminum shoe with pads. This is a very impressive, top of the line, state of the art center for laminitis. Do not accept that nothing can be done.
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BridledObsession
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Sylvie Hebert
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Our race pony name is Chico ,he is an appy that came to us from Manitoba lying in a stock trailer from chronic founder...(came from a year in a feedlot)he can run 2f in a bit over 24 that is pretty good for a 16 yo founder victim...is a hell of a nice pick up horse or outrider mount too.check Dr.strasser and also barefoot trims...take xrays to trim to a flat coffin bone,short toe,walk a lot,soak in apple cider vinegar,...it worked for Chico...Good luck
The sport and industry survive not only because of the champions that are remembered forever but also because of the losers that are so easy to forget...
Get radiographs on her ASAP and get your vet involved to make recommendations on corrective shoeing or trimes, management (especially as a broodmare), and pain management. Your farrier will need the radiographs to work from and it is best to get pre and post farrier work radiographs while she is very critical. Your farrier should be willing and able to work with your vet off radiographs or you should find one that does work with your vet.
The mare sounds pretty painful, so getting her more comfortable is priority. Your vet may be able to support her feet with special padding and other supports (every vet seems to a favorite system ) while you get a handle on her with the farrier. He can also get her onto a safe bute or other NSAID program, perhaps along with gastrogard while she is on these medications on a constant basis.
Keep her in a deeply bedded stall with hay in a net and on the ground (some foundered horses are able to eat most comfortably if their hay is chest high or so rather than putting their heads down to eat (which puts pressure on the front feet); if she is laying down, she may eat the hay from the ground while she down. If this is the case, make sure she also has a water bucket she can reach while laying down and eating.
I've seen some horses come back quickly and entirely even after a bad episode. I've also seen horses deteriorate despite every effort that is made to save them. Most are somewhere in betweeen, though--the ones that get consistent farrier work from a good farrier do the best. As in making sure she gets reset/trimmed every 3 or 4 weeks as needed, her abscesses treated in between, and never goes longer than than recommended in between trims or shoes. I've seen to many people slack and let them go 5 or 6 weeks between farrier work when the farrier said 3 or 4 weeks and meant it; this seems like a short cycle for a normal horse and like it wouldn't matter. Generally I see people waiting an extra week or two until the horse seems really lame or whatever and rushing it to the farrier. I doesn't work that way without slowing recovery or even preventing the horse from getting better at all.
So basically get the vet involved now and get hooked up with an outstanding corrective farrier. Then do what they say, exactly, meaning resetting every 3 weeks and getting radiographs before and after each trim as recommended until she gets "back on her feet" so to speak. Expensive and time consuming, but I think it is your best bet with a horse like this.
The mare sounds pretty painful, so getting her more comfortable is priority. Your vet may be able to support her feet with special padding and other supports (every vet seems to a favorite system ) while you get a handle on her with the farrier. He can also get her onto a safe bute or other NSAID program, perhaps along with gastrogard while she is on these medications on a constant basis.
Keep her in a deeply bedded stall with hay in a net and on the ground (some foundered horses are able to eat most comfortably if their hay is chest high or so rather than putting their heads down to eat (which puts pressure on the front feet); if she is laying down, she may eat the hay from the ground while she down. If this is the case, make sure she also has a water bucket she can reach while laying down and eating.
I've seen some horses come back quickly and entirely even after a bad episode. I've also seen horses deteriorate despite every effort that is made to save them. Most are somewhere in betweeen, though--the ones that get consistent farrier work from a good farrier do the best. As in making sure she gets reset/trimmed every 3 or 4 weeks as needed, her abscesses treated in between, and never goes longer than than recommended in between trims or shoes. I've seen to many people slack and let them go 5 or 6 weeks between farrier work when the farrier said 3 or 4 weeks and meant it; this seems like a short cycle for a normal horse and like it wouldn't matter. Generally I see people waiting an extra week or two until the horse seems really lame or whatever and rushing it to the farrier. I doesn't work that way without slowing recovery or even preventing the horse from getting better at all.
So basically get the vet involved now and get hooked up with an outstanding corrective farrier. Then do what they say, exactly, meaning resetting every 3 weeks and getting radiographs before and after each trim as recommended until she gets "back on her feet" so to speak. Expensive and time consuming, but I think it is your best bet with a horse like this.
"I'll lay me down and bleed a while, and then I'll rise and fight again." Sir Barton
Wanted to add the possibility of getting her worked up at New Bolton Center, as someone else here did. Should be around 100 miles from your area. They have at least two farriers on staff, Bob Sigafoos and Pat Reilly, that work with the staff surgeons, and all these folks are at the top of their field. This is a dream team for your foundered mare.
I don't have an idea of what kind of situation that your mare is in at this point. New Bolton would be the best place to evaluate this mare and start treatment. This is the cadillac route, expensive but worth it for some cases.
BTW, you do not need a referral to get a large animal appt. Call them directly and they'll set you up and give you some price estimates on their workup, rads, farrier, etc. If she is terribly painful on her feet they may ask you to leave her there to treat rather than haul her to/from your farm to her appts.
Best case scenario is that you take her in to have her evaluated by the surgery team, get the xray read by a radiologist, and then make a plan with the farrier about the state of her feet and how she should trimmed and correctively shod. After consulting with the surgeon and evaluating the rads, the farrier start the corrective work. He'll explain what he's doing and why, and let you know whether she can be trimmed at home by your farrier or if she needs to be hauled in every x number weeks so that he can work on them. The vets will give you management rec's about stalling her, walking her, feeding her, pain control, etc.
Worse (or more expensive) would for her to hospitalized so that they could work on her feet more often or do not feel she is up to being trailered back and forth. There are many advantages to this when a horse is very severe, since there will be people to monitor her all the times and adjust her pain meds accordingly. Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy might be considered in her case if it is very severe, although I don't know if New Bolton has one.
I don't have an idea of what kind of situation that your mare is in at this point. New Bolton would be the best place to evaluate this mare and start treatment. This is the cadillac route, expensive but worth it for some cases.
BTW, you do not need a referral to get a large animal appt. Call them directly and they'll set you up and give you some price estimates on their workup, rads, farrier, etc. If she is terribly painful on her feet they may ask you to leave her there to treat rather than haul her to/from your farm to her appts.
Best case scenario is that you take her in to have her evaluated by the surgery team, get the xray read by a radiologist, and then make a plan with the farrier about the state of her feet and how she should trimmed and correctively shod. After consulting with the surgeon and evaluating the rads, the farrier start the corrective work. He'll explain what he's doing and why, and let you know whether she can be trimmed at home by your farrier or if she needs to be hauled in every x number weeks so that he can work on them. The vets will give you management rec's about stalling her, walking her, feeding her, pain control, etc.
Worse (or more expensive) would for her to hospitalized so that they could work on her feet more often or do not feel she is up to being trailered back and forth. There are many advantages to this when a horse is very severe, since there will be people to monitor her all the times and adjust her pain meds accordingly. Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy might be considered in her case if it is very severe, although I don't know if New Bolton has one.
"I'll lay me down and bleed a while, and then I'll rise and fight again." Sir Barton
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BridledObsession
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Thanks all......it's very frustrating to hope for improvement every day and not see as much as you'd like.
I like the New Bolton idea. We've had good experiences with them in the past. We're experiencing alot of frustration with the farriers in this area and the last vet who took a quick look at her just told us to give her time. Somehow, I think it's going to take more than just "time", although that will certainly be a factor.
She's currently in a large stall or outside grazing. She really doesn't want to move but she will for food.
One question.......she came back grossly underweight so we've been mixing supplements and beet pulp with her grain. Should I be drastically cutting back her grain? We think she foundered to begin with either due to being turned out 24/7on spring grass and/or being fed straight alfalfa. They also gave her some kind of shot in her knee (the man who owns the farm is an Osteopath for humans) that she could have had a reaction to and foundered. So, if I'm trying to put weight back on her and get nutrition in to give her strength, how much should I cut the grain back by???
I like the New Bolton idea. We've had good experiences with them in the past. We're experiencing alot of frustration with the farriers in this area and the last vet who took a quick look at her just told us to give her time. Somehow, I think it's going to take more than just "time", although that will certainly be a factor.
She's currently in a large stall or outside grazing. She really doesn't want to move but she will for food.
One question.......she came back grossly underweight so we've been mixing supplements and beet pulp with her grain. Should I be drastically cutting back her grain? We think she foundered to begin with either due to being turned out 24/7on spring grass and/or being fed straight alfalfa. They also gave her some kind of shot in her knee (the man who owns the farm is an Osteopath for humans) that she could have had a reaction to and foundered. So, if I'm trying to put weight back on her and get nutrition in to give her strength, how much should I cut the grain back by???
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RandomThoughts
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A recent experience
At this point, no one knows the exact mechanism of laminitis. New Bolton (that has a major study underway) now believes that it is an inflammatory process vs. the previously believed circulatory. In any event, there appears to be multiple triggering causes. It also appears that much of the damage occurs early on, so time is of the essence.
From my experience, there are two treatment routes that you can follow: 1) conventional such as you will find with the major clinics noted earlier, and 2) unconventional most prominently offered by Dr. Ric Redden in Versailles, Ky. and by Dr. Andrea Floyd around Charlottesville, Va.
I lost a valuable mare in Kentucky going the conventional route and, on the other hand I have a friend who appears to be in the process of saving a filly with Dr. Floyd with an investment of much time and expense.
So I can't say with any scientific support which is the better route. The conventional approach is more focused on the internal cascade of metabolic effects, and it will probably ultimately find the preferred treatment. The latter, however, addresses the internal cascade, but focuses more heavily on the treatment of the symptoms such as pain, rotation, shoeing, etc.
Hope this helps frame your decisions and good luck.
From my experience, there are two treatment routes that you can follow: 1) conventional such as you will find with the major clinics noted earlier, and 2) unconventional most prominently offered by Dr. Ric Redden in Versailles, Ky. and by Dr. Andrea Floyd around Charlottesville, Va.
I lost a valuable mare in Kentucky going the conventional route and, on the other hand I have a friend who appears to be in the process of saving a filly with Dr. Floyd with an investment of much time and expense.
So I can't say with any scientific support which is the better route. The conventional approach is more focused on the internal cascade of metabolic effects, and it will probably ultimately find the preferred treatment. The latter, however, addresses the internal cascade, but focuses more heavily on the treatment of the symptoms such as pain, rotation, shoeing, etc.
Hope this helps frame your decisions and good luck.
The talented ones will give you an early hint.
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nythoroughbredvz
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Something else you may want to try or look into! My mare that had the absess is doing well but she was uncomfortable on that foot mostly because her oposite knee has a old race injury and she wasnt sharing the weight as she should. anyhow, I called my farrier to come pute pads on her or to look into some support system's to help her be comfortable. luckily he told me he was out of pads, and a few other things, so I offered to go to his supplier and pick up anything he needed as well as what I would need for her. so after a 2 hour drive getting there I was glad I made the trip! the owner of the supply house has 35-45 year's experience as a farrier. he really hooked me up, and she is feeling great! Started off with a fresh trimming and cleaing of the hoof, then used Vetec Adhere on the crack from the absess. and also pute the adhere on the outer hoof above and below the crack for the cast to adhere to,and using it to apply Mclane full support pads. and going over the entire hoof, crack and pad with a 3'' hoof cast made by-Equicast. after the cast dried he pute a regular set of front shoe's on her and she feels great! the cast came with a instructional DVD and I will never not have one on hand in the future..my farrier is ordering a case Monday he also liked them.
here are the following websites:
www.equicastinc.com
www.mustadhoofcare.com
www.vettec.com
The farrier is very knowledgable and willing to share his advice.
Afton Farrier Supply
http://aftonfarriersupply.tripod.com
e-mail - [email protected]
(607)206-3867 & (607)343-6539
look at the folowing websites
here are the following websites:
www.equicastinc.com
www.mustadhoofcare.com
www.vettec.com
The farrier is very knowledgable and willing to share his advice.
Afton Farrier Supply
http://aftonfarriersupply.tripod.com
e-mail - [email protected]
(607)206-3867 & (607)343-6539
look at the folowing websites