How do I get them to gain weight??

Veterinary, horse care, and training issues.

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Sock Monkey
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Postby Sock Monkey » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:55 am

Evenheaven wrote:I also have retrained many OTTBs and Sockmonkey, I have to respectfully disagree with you about keeping weight on them. Some really struggle at first. Not only are you changing how they work, you change when they work, type of work and complete lifestyle.


Why would a change in lifestyle or work make a horse lose weight? It shouldn't. It's not an issue when we retire a horse or put one on layup - which are changes of lifestyle. You may have a different situation, but I every time I talk to a sport horse or riding horse person and they complain about their hard keeping OTTB it turns out they just aren't feeding enough. When I have a horse for sale, I frequently get calls wanting an easy keeper. It's always interesting b/c my idea of an easy keeper is just not what they average person's is. :lol: Thoroughbreds eat more than QHs and when they are transitioning from race fit to less-than-race-fit they lose muscle mass and have to put on a lot of weight to make up for that.

Blaming steroids is a cop-out. A horse has to be on a very high dose for withdrawal to make him/her wind up in poor condition.

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Mikki79
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Postby Mikki79 » Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:48 am

I disagree sock Monkey. I've been working with OTTB's for 3 years now (I've worked with horses all my life) and the only ones that I have any issue with losing weight are the ones that recently come off the track. Not any of the other OTTB's that are already working within a new discipline that have come to my facility ONLY the recent track releases and not all of them but a select few. They get more to eat than any of the other transitioning horses and are still losing weight and worse some lost most of their hair. I also keep all of these horses inside and slowly introduce them into the pasture.

Maybe if I had weight loss with all of the recent retired racers and not a select few I might agree but I still doubt it. I was pulling hair out trying to figure out what was wrong with them and it was determined it was steroid use, not starvation or under feeding that was causing their issues. And with every one that I was having issues with we knew they had been giving steroids for injuries. I just within the past month brought in a equine nutritionist to help me design a feeding program especially for those select few and it's working. Slowly but surely it is working.

I've had everything from racing, to dressage, to eventing, to broodmares come in so I work with a wide variety of TB's in different disciplines. And no i've never had any issues with my QH's or my pony keeping weight, that part I agree with, but then none of them we were given steroids either. So my rule of thumb now is to treat any recent retired racer as if they had been given steroids and I start them on ration plus as soon as they come in. I've had 6 come in within 2 months and none have lost weight and all have gained since I started giving ration plus as soon as they come into our facility. We all have our own ideas and ways of dealing with issues. I prefer to kick the habit before I see any symptoms!!!

psidio
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Weight Issues

Postby psidio » Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:01 pm

I brought a 3 year old filly home off the track..to (retrain to go back to the track). She was extremely thin. First we addressed possible ulcers with a feed additive. It helped some. She came from two of the top trainers in the Mid-west. I was assured her teeth were fine and had been worked on. We have one of the top horse tooth Vets in the region nearby, so I took her there. The previous vets, ( as most vets do) had messed around with the front part of her mouth. They had a nice bit set, and had the front teeth in decent shape. The middle and rear part of her mouth was a wreck. Open sores and ulcers, sharp points ripping her cheecks open. Four baby teeth hung at an angle to cut into her cheek tissue. We fixed all that and she started gaining weight. I have a belief that there had been steroids use previously, but don't know for sure.

As for higher protein. #1) did you compute the amount of protein in the lush green grass your horse was eating?.. #2) My understaning is that too much protein gets expressed as excess urea, and is very hard on the kidneys etc.

Weight is about carbs and fats, not so much about protein.

Another poster mentioned Buckeye feeds Trifecta . It is excellent. Good palatibility. I have also used Purena Ultium, and it was ok. Purina Race Ready holds up better in a mash.

One thing to consider is that these feed companies spend a lot of time and money getting the correct balance of fats, energy, protein, digestability etc in their feed. To then dump a lot of protein ( soymeal) or fats (veg oil) may defeat the purpose of that high dollar feed.

My background is with endurance horses. You will learn about keeping weight on a horse by doing back to back 50 mile races every couple of weeks. ( two 50 mile races on a weekend, and then two weeks later doing that again).

One thing I also use daily on her is probiotics. Get the gut working, or the best feed in world won't help.

Paul N. Sidio
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Postby doublete » Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:29 pm

Just wanted to say that sometimes it does take months for the steroids to cause the "crash"... It takes 6 months to be completely out of their systems. Thus when PA banned the use, people were dumping horses left and right because they would have to wait 6+ months before they could run them safely. (although they were warned.. but that is besides the point).
Racing and retraining.

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Postby spex4me » Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:39 am

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=487

lots more articles besides this one. If you aren't a member join it's free and WELL worth it!!

My "put some junk in the trunk solution" Vegetable oil. Glossy coat, better stools, no overload of fat, no overload of protein, no overload of grain.

Mind you too much oil added can give your horse some runny manure but I add 1/2 cup to very little grain. I mean very little, like maybe a quart to a quart and a half once daily. (sorry never bought into a field ornament needing 2 feedings of grain)

Probably easily 25 pounds of hay half alfalfa half orchard. And then some crappy pasture grass. No really good soil here so grass is a tad lacking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfcv5NWrnNg&NR=1 shows my 2 year old tb and 7 year old spotted devil , they each log about 15 miles on average a week trail riding. So they get good exercise and still maintain plumpness. (sorry side paddock is work in progess as trees keep wanting to slam into the wooden fence)
trying to come up with something brillant..... this may take a while. :)

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walaa
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2 grains

Postby walaa » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:24 pm

my field ornament does need 2 grain feedins a day. He eats enough that it is much better for him to get it twice than 6-8 pounds at once , in my opinion. And since no one else here eats any grain at all right now, it is just this particular horse and something with his needs. All horses are different. Plus as stated with all the posts here, there seems to be very different opinions as to how long it really takes for all the junk to get out of their systems. I have worked with many off trackers. As someone else stated, I had some that bada bing :!: were wonderful, some needed more training than others, I personally just have never seen an off the tracker look worse weeks off the track, than better. Thats when the duke came to me, and he continued to look worse for a couple weeks (I did get the ones from a low budget Philly park trainer, so I know that made a difference too, they all came home looking like they were starving, so how could they not start looking better right away :!: ). Not this horse, but the other ones I have worked with. It has been the reverse for me, they immediately started looking better within 2 weeks of coming home. Duke has been here since the end of June, he came off the track end of May, he is just now starting to gain weight, and not much at that. He does crib, which doesnt help, but he doesnt crib much since he is outside alot, and he is quite big. I havent measured him but at least 16.2 maybe more. I think Sock Monkey is right, it is just that some horse nned a ton of feed, it doesnt matter how bad grain is , protein is ,whatever, some horses just need a huge amount to maintain, and some dont. And the ones that need a large amount, no matter what all the nutritionalists say, it surely isnt more harmful for them, THEN TO not feed that much, and just watch them look worse and worse. I couldnt believe how much that Research Council book said to feed my horse, and that is a council that I believe is just for horses. The original poster, or one soon after, was talking about her mare that ate very good hay and feed, so maybe that mare justs needs tons more fat, you know. My t-bred mares, that dont eat any grain in the summer, eat 10-12% protein, 10% fat feed in the winter, with good hay, and thy look great, so they obviously dont need that much protein through their grain, they are getting plenty elsewhere, if they need it. This gelding just is a hard keeper. i thought my mares were hard keepers, now I know the true definition :shock: :shock: I just dont know what else to do really, he has protein, he has fat, he has good hay, he has grass, and he does no work. As I stated before, he was originally a resell project, anyone want him :?: :D :?: :D he will be a great foxhunter, dressage horse. After all the money I have spent on my rescue, I have a feeling I will be looking for a tax deductable donation to a theraputic (sp??)riding center here in the next couple months, if this horse doesnt turn out to be sound for serious riding after all the money I have spent :shock: :D :!: if anyone knows of one, the Duke is super sweet, super gentle, my 71 yr old mom can turn him in and out and give him baths, and with his size and beauty he would be a favorite with the kids or whoever is taking lessons. he needs a job, I think that would help him gain weight. There was about a week when he gained more weight, and looked sound, so I put a western saddle on him, and a snaffle and got on him. he was about as wonderful and sweet as you could ask for, I really had to get into him to get him to canter. Got both leads, canters both ways, etc. not the right forum, I'll stop, but if anyone is interested in a rescue that would be wonderful for all types of people to work with, who eats a whole lot of everything, I have one :D

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spex4me
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Postby spex4me » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:48 pm

Ok I am so very lucky (running picking shamrocks, knocking on wood, throwing salt over my shoulder, trying to get the rabbit to let me borrow it's foot lol) that I have never had to feed that much grain. Though I always thought that once you pass the six pound mark with feeding grain even more than 2 feeedings would be needed. :? Now I am spitting this verbatim per a few vets, but I have been told good quality hay and grass has all the vitamins, protein, fiber, energy and minerals a horse requires. Throw in a free choice mineral block and most should be set.
Also when I had several bouts of colic with the same horse over and over and over , my vet suggested to cut out excess grain as the horse has a surprisingly small stomach for it's size. It only holds 2-4 gallons, and it does little of the actual digestion. And fermentation with grain runs rampant. For horses expected to be athletes, old horses, or horses that have been ill, grain feedingshould be kept to a minimum. You may want to add fat to the diet. Fat is a good way to add extra energy without extra bulk, and can be done by top dressing feed with 1/4 to 1/2 cup of corn oil per meal. (not me uttering what I think, but what I was told, though I believe it)

That is why I cut back enormously on grain and started the fat program. And a gelding that went from averaging 4 cases of colic a year (love those bills) hasn't even exhibited one sign in 3 years. My thing is start small and then progress up. THANK THE LORD I have been lucky enough to only have pretty decent keepers (note not easy lol)

But horses are all different so maybe one day I will have a tale to tell about another practice (hope not) of feeding lol!! :wink:
trying to come up with something brillant..... this may take a while. :)