physitis

[aurora]

I just brought my mare home from the stud and her baby who is 3 1/2 months old has lumpy ankles, physitis. The farm was feeding him way too much grain. He is now in a stall with mom and getting milk and grass hay only. I hate to wean this early, besides the mare is pregnant again and I don't want to stress her until she is at least 50+ days preg. I've been through this before but it was a long time ago and I can't remember how long it took for the ankles to resume their normal appearance. Anyone?

[serenarider]

I have a fiend who is going through the same thing, But her weanling if 5 mths old. I have never had this problem do not know what to tell her, her vet told her to cut back grain witch the filly was barley getting. and put her on a cosoform sp* anyone out there have this problem and what can you except from it?

[serenarider]

No one ever had this problem?

[Shammy Davis]

I've managed a young yearling filly that suffered early on with physitis. She was not originally mine and I must tell you in all honesty the prognosis is grim. My research and investigation in her case produced little information other than to cut back on her (the foal) nutrition to the very minimum. Simply, you have probably passed the point of no return if her symptoms are as you described. Move the mare and foal to good quality meadow hay. An orchard mix is probably the best. Maintain the mare on a full diet while allowing the foal to nurse and graze on hay until weaning. Don't wean early. Then maintain the weanling on a good quality mixed hay until the aggrevated signs of stress along the legs disappear. The filly I managed is three now. She is toed-in but otherwise healthy. Some professionals say limit movement. I don't have any thoughts in this regard and I'm a farrier. I don't believe that confinement is a good regimen for any juvenile. Their limitations will provide natural parameters. Do have a farrier work with the foal from the very beginning. A great deal can be done by corrective trimming. I was working on this filly about once a week. Today, I trim her hooves about every four weeks, but I've done all I can. Consult with a VET who specialized in juvenile orthopedics. In all the cases I know of, bone structure and alignment was compromised from the knee down. I'm very sorry for your tragedy. The filly that I brought to my farm and that I now own was bred and foaled at one the top breeding farms in our state. They are also a big name consignor and their care mangement of this foal indicates to me that in regards to nutrition this filly was ruined trying to get her auction. Fat and pretty does not mean healthly and athletic. The lesson to be learned is to allow mother nature to take its course. Feeding young foals and weanlings grain is a stupid act. Don't do it. There is no market for yealings that have suffered from physitis, sometimes referred to as epiphysitis. For sure, my filly's original owner will second this. In less than 6 months from the time this filly was born, they were out at least a hundred thousand.

[teb]

Everyone has diffrent opinions on this and here goes mine. I have an 8month old Dutch/Tb colt who is 14.2 and wieghs 675pds. I have had no problems with "lumpy ankles" for one reason because his nutrition is balanced and he is fed correctly for his weight and age. Buckeye nutrition makes a product called Grow N Win which is a balancer and can be mixed with oats or pellets. I say pellets because one problem with phystitis is sugar content in your grain. My foals are all on the Grow N Win and a Bailey's feed called Top Line Cubes which is very high in fat and virtually no sugar. Gives them condition which young horses do need. My foals start out on foal aide for the first month of life and progress to foal pellets also from Buckeye. Saying not to feed young horse is stupid really, research and you will see phystitis can be from a lack of nutrients as well. My foal is not fat and you can still see an outline of his ribs, but he needs nutrition not found in grass and hay. I tend to find foods in the states have way too much sugar in the sweet mix, so stick with a pellet. Our coarse mixes over here can be found with much less sugar and they are dry and don't clump. I have made it my mission to research feed and feeding young horses and I suggest it to anyone with young stock.
Terri

[Shammy Davis]

I do know that Buckeye feeds come highly recommended. Whether are not that comes in to play w/physitis is another thread. I began shoeing horses 35 years ago and I can tell you that over feeding juveniles with grain based feeds is a recipe for disaster, particularly with thoroughbreds. Further, no one said stop feeding either the mare or the foal. The foal should still nurse and be provided good quality hay. If the mare is healthy she'll pass the nutrients along to foal. I'm retired now from farriery, but I'm an EqDT and I still float teeth. Your take on Buckeye feeds has been collaborated by many of my clients and associates. Your take on physitis needs some study. If you want to put one of your juveniles on a grain based diet after showing signs of physitis, go for it. But to tell someone else to do it with their juvenile is a major mistake. Although the odds are low that physitis will occur, any occurence is significant enough to be careful. Anyone facing this problem with one of their foals or weanlings needs to be talking with their VET and working with a competent farrier.

[serenarider]

Thanks guys for the replys on this. Ugg ok here is what her ver said to do. The filly will be on a quater scoop of 10% pellets. osto form supplemt. timothy grass hay only. The fillys legs are really correct but she is just growing way to fast. so vet pretty much advised calorie intake cut. I was out there today at her farm we sticked the filly and she was at 5 1/2 mths 13 hands and 520 lbs. Oh and the vet wants her on a msm supp. exrays will be taken again in 6 mths to see where she is. Vet said the filly should be better in 6 to 8 weeks. Oh yea almost forgot excercise is in a paddock not huge pasture. complete stall rest and all that jazz she dose not need but she also needs to be in a smaller area too.

I have been reading everything under the sun about this since i was trying to help her do some research on it. and holly confusing with all the stuff i have read. Thank god for a vet that knows whats shes doing and deals with only race babies. She said that this year she has seen allot of this. Nothing that my friend did. did not over feed the foal/weanling nor was she not getting what she needed. She just hit to hard of a growth spirt...

[Shammy Davis]

Sounds like a plan. Apparently you caught it early. Best of luck.

[pembroke]

Just wanted to add my two cents worth. I had this same problem last year and the vet told me somewhat the same...to much grain, etc., etc., etc. Well, this year it cropped up again. I was going to Quarter Horse Congress and decided, while there, to pick the brains of every major feed company. They are all represented there as well as alot of companies selling supplements. In a nut shell here is what they told me.

THEY ALL AGREED on one thing. Shortage or imbalance of COPPER! It is NOT caused by feeding to much grain...actually, just the opposite. IF, the foal is not getting enough copper and the other minerals, cutting back on grain just makes it worse. Starves them of the very thing they are lacking! Of course, they all said their feed was THE best...and I expected that of them...after all, they were there to sell product. They all told me that the copper content of feed is way off.!!! Way to low. It should be about 200 ppm for foals and yearlings!

Here is what some of them told me that I remember specifically....
Buckeye feed says to watch the hypoglycemic content....not just sugar. An oil based grain is best...(we all know that molasses is not digested by horses..it just ferments in their gut) so that made sense.
Nutrena said to watch the sugar. They have a new feed for that purpose.
Tiz Whiz told me they add no sweetner to their horse feed and keep the glycemic level low. It is NOT caused by to much protein as previously believed!!!

If you really want a crash course on this subject....I highly recommend calling Dr. Tiznic. He is available one day a week for personal consultations. He told me exactly how to feed and how much and asked me to call him in thirty days to check in.

They ALSO ALL AGREED on one other point. That by correcting the deficiency with what ever grain or supplement you choose...you will see definite results in 4 weeks! The deficency, by the way, is caused by the lack of minerals in your soil!!
One more thing they all agreed on....feed the mare the right supplement starting in the second half of her pregnancy and she will have enough to give her foal the correct balances right thru weaning.

All in all, that was a very interesting day at Congress. I had expected to hear conflicting things from each feed company and was Shocked that I didn't. All the feed companies have reps available to talk to you. Just ask at your feed mill for their phone or emails. I do have Tizwiz' number and will find it and post it.

I hope this helps. I know it sure helped me. I went with the TIZWHIZ because of availability. My foals started on it 3 weeks ago today and one is completely normal looking and the worst one has drastically improved. I see only one spot where she looks swollen.

[madelyn]

I got into a conversation with my vet about feed and minerals... we mainly feed oats and offer free choice mineral supplements. Have been doing so for a couple of years and the horses are BLOOMING. Sweet feed is nasty stuff. We feed a really nice broodmare/foal mix made by a local feed company. My vet said KY soil is lacking in Selenium (very) and that is the one mineral not to skip. She also talked about the Calcium/Phosphorus ratio and how too high a phosphorus content can cause a calcium DEFICIENCY -- not a desirable thing in a growing foal. She also backed away from the topic, saying she was not an equine nutritionalist. So that started me on a study quest. I've been reading feed tags and everything I could find. Each mineral in the system has a balancing offset and copper deficiency can be cause by too much ... something. The point is, these things are not caused by too much grain, they are caused by too much manufactured, processed sweet feed with imbalanced mineral supplements in the feed. If you just offer plenty of oats and the minerals are free choice the horses will pick out what they need.

[teb]

My information is based on most things Pembroke has to say. And it is why I feed the way I do today. Also, I have a copper deficincy on my land here in Ireland and so I have to supplement for this condition. My foal received 2 doses of copper per month with his balanced diet. I had a forage anaylisis done on the land to make sure what was what. It drives me mental to hear people saying don't feed foals, it only leads to problems!
teb

[Shammy Davis]

Over the years, I've developed a number of references on horseshoeing and general veterinary care. The following are quotes and their titles from two easily obtained contemporary and competent references.

"Epiphysitis may be caused by uneven weight distribution (see quote below) on the plates or an unbalanced diet. Excess feeding of high grain rations to hasten growth of young animals supplies an excess of phosphorus and a deficiency of calcium. This causes an epiphysitis that may be reversible if the ration is improved when the condition first occurs." The Principals of Horseshoeing II by Butler.

"A combination of several factors appears to contribute to the development of physitis. They include genetic predisposition, rapid growth, obesity, trace mineral deficiency, calcium/phosphorus imbalances, and excessive and strenuous exercise. . Physitis is most likely to occur in overweight active foals on high grain rations low in calcium and high in phosphorus. The frequency of the disease is increasing because more breeders are selectively feeding for rapid growth and maximum mature size. . . Physitis is also known to occur in association with other developmental bone diseases, including wobbler syndrome, angular limb deformities, osteochondrosis, and flexural limb deformities." Horse Owner's Veterinary Handbook, Giffin & Gore/Second Edition

I don't think it matters who is right or wrong on this thread, but we all agree that the incidence of physitis is on the rise. I'm an old school horseman and when I started out as farrier in OK and KS we didn't know anything about these diseases. We trimmed hooves at the time to correct gaits. Horses were shod for protection, footing, and to correct gaits. I do remember that horsemen were smart enough to allow their juveniles to develop into adults before putting physical stress on them. I've read many books by old school race trainers (not in the US) who waited as much as 5 years for a horse to develop before putting them to the track or chase.

I'm sure there a many quality feeds, some of them mentioned, on the market to go along with some of the trash that lines the shelves and pallets at the feed stores. I'm sure the nutrition specialist with these feed companies are up on the latest science, but I can also tell you that they are in the business of selling feed and they will tell you, without exception, their's is the best. In every document or book I've ever read, the author's have cautioned using excessuve amounts of grain based feeds in juvenile diets. If an owner wants to put his/her juveniles on a grain based diet, that is an option that is theirs to make. IMHO, to make a blanket statement that certain feeds prevent this problem is a mistake. Madelyn certainly makes a good point about free access to a good quality mineral block. Having floated teeth for a number years also, I can also tell you that grain based diets are horrible for the teeth. If you want your horses to have good sound teeth reduce the grain and give free access to pasture or hay 24/7. You'll never need a EqDT.

[pembroke]

Shammy, I agree about the less grain, more hay theory. That is why when our vet said, " cut the grain."..I almost laughed! Our horses get very little grain and ALL the hay they will eat without wasteing it. The vet couldn't believe it when I showed him how little grain I feed. We buy hay from several different farms around the area in an effort to try to balance the ration naturally. Getting them off commercial feed and onto good oats helped a lot. I offer minerals free choice and they wouldn't touch them! I still think that having your soil analyzed is the best way. This is dairy country and all the farms do that...guess what they are adding? Copper!

[teb]

I agree with the feed companies trying to sell you feed which is why I like my UK based company Bailey's. They will tell you flat out you start with forage first and then add food to complete the total ration. All my horses are free fed hay. I have a few TB yearlings for breaking and they have to be in a lot this year. (It started raining in the beginning of October and hasn't stopped-Ireland). My big warmblood foal only gets a total of 6 pds daily which is 1 scoop of pellets and 2 coffee mugs of GNW am and pm. Now the farm I rent in would drive you mental with the amounts of food given and every one of their foals has lumps everywhere. They don't listen and they feel the amount I'm giving is enough for any foal. It's always a balancing act between the forage, the feed, weather conditions, ect. I usually have plenty of grass at this time of year, but with all the rain my paddocks are shot and I'm doing more hay for this time of year. Like I've said, I really didn't have a clue when starting out with foals a few years ago and I made it my most important task to find out all I could. I could still be doing it wrong, but I don't seem to have any growth related problems at the moment and I will stick with that!
teb

[austique]

For those of you who are feeding oats, are you feeding rolled or crimped? I really like the sweetfeed I am using when it first came out (not so much molasses) but now its like "Would you like some grain with that molasses?" and I can't find a suitable replacement (not a big fan of pellets).