Louis's Blog on Inbreeding

[DDT]

louis

Name one leading broodmare sire in the past 100 years that was inbred to a female family and had a feminine look.

One leading sire that comes to mind is Danehill, inbred to Natalma, he certainly is a sire of sires and he is holding his own as a broodmare sire, and I believe he had a very "coltish" look. I do not know where you came up with this idea, but I would like at least one example, please.

DDT

[louis finochio]

I am from the old school, no cell ph. no camera, I drive a 90 mazda, & 93 ford aerostar, both run great, as I am not into fashion, give me an old breeding book & I' will be a happy camper. Yesterday I went to the CTBA library searching for a book that has the conformation faults of those Ph. foundation stallions. I found Abram Hewitts Sire Lines, a great source of info.

Many of the old generation trainers can recall those conformation faults of those foundation stallions. Trainer Bob Wingfield told me that Bold Ruler had artritis real bad & his trainer Sunny Jim Fitzimmons wrapped BR up with blankets and bandages after a good linament rub down each time before he raced. There is a lot of knowledge on the backstretch, as I am always asking ? to those school tariners who saw those big horses run & train. I love this sport, as that is what makes me dig deeper to search for those answers of the mysterys of the past.

[louis finochio]

When I get done with the female family influence, I will post a list of BMS that were bred on a similar pattern of superior producing Mares, when you find a cluster of Blue hens or broodmares of the year they will leave their influence on many stallions that become a better B M S than sires of sires.

I would have to research what B M S would qualify as having features of a female inherited look. I will go back through the pictures of those older stallions to find a reference to what I am referring to.

Danehill has a head that resembles a filly more than a colt and has more of a filly confirmation than the robust confirmation of a colt, Danehill is a very well balanced individual. in my friend's book Leon Rasmussen inbreeding to Superior females look at the photo of Danehill and you can see what I am referring to.

[xfactor fan]

http://www.pedigreequery.com/danehill

Link to his pedigree and conformation photo. Doesn't look like a filly to me. Anyone else see a filly here???

[louis finochio]

According to the geneticists, sex is determined at the moment of conception, when the spermatozoa of the Male meets the egg of the Female. however sex like every other part of life is chemical and during the incubation of the egg a chemical change in it can alter the original sex of the embryo. This can be a rare occurrence but it happens more often where the female is bred intensively.

many novices will ask, I have a stallion that breeds fillys when coupled any mare, never a colt, Why? a stallion, probably started life, in the egg as a filly but change to a colt before being born. in intensively Inbred female families tendency to breed males which started life as females is more marked.

To continue.

[xfactor fan]

True for reptiles, but not for horses or humans.

There are rare genetic disorders that create humans that are genetic males, but look female. A hormone is blocked, these folks are sterile, and prone to cancer of the retained testes.

Louis, where are you getting this stuff? Please site your sources.

[DDT]

louis

Sex in mammals is determined by chromosomes not chemical change during the formation of the offspring. There are cases when there are more than two sex chromosomes present, YYX, XXY, XXXY and so on, but chemical alternations during cell building are the result of these extra chromosomes. Is your last post simply your own idea or can you reference any mammal genetic research that goes to sex change due to chemical reactions during cell growth?

As to stallions only producing female offspring it could be due to influence from the maternal side and the sperm carrying X chromosomes are more active, or swim faster, or it could be that the sperm carrying the Y chromosome are deformed in some manner. By the way, I know of no stallion that covered more than a few mares producing only fillies.

DDT

[diomed]

Oh boy...
This is middle school genetics.
Geez....
Louis, the Y male sperm determines male and the X determines female.
Whichever sperm gets to the egg determines the sex.
The female egg, as of yet, has not been proven to dictate what sperm hits it.
The time of conception based on ovulation can determine the sex more often.
Male sperm are faster but have a shorter life span. Female sperm are slower but can last longer inside the female.
So, if the female is very close to ovulation, the sex of the offspring has a higher chance to be male vs female.
If ovulation is soon or about to be done, there is a good chance it will be female.
Of course, a genetic abnormality in the sperm production(x vs y in males) is possible but I can't state that I have ever read about that.
I know Cigar had genetic flaws to his sperm, therefore, making him technically sterile.

Oh my, I learned this in middle school....LOL!!

[louis finochio]

I started reading everything I could about the breeding side of the industry at 11 years old. What I am posting here is my notes from all of those publications for the last 60 yrs. If you dont agree, with many of these postings, I will not show my anger, as I have used these golden notes in the past to produce many superior racing pigeons the poor mans Tb.

What I have posted applies to dogs, & other animals of the kingdom not just Tb. Keep em Flying, Louis.

[xfactor fan]

Garbage In, Garbage Out

Give me one example of a stallion that is XX, in other words a fertile, breeding male phenotype, with a female genotype. This miracle "stallion" would be only capable of producing female offspring.

Birds are not mammals, they lay eggs, don't give live birth. Things that are true for birds are not true for horses.

For everybody but Louis, fertilized eggs don't change their sex--XX eggs don't magically become YX.

If you have any doubts about this statement google sex determination. That should get you started. As diomed said this is biology 101. Not even advanced genetics.

Louis, I have no problem with you taking Bee products, or drinking pee, or any of the other health related things you have posted over the years.

But now you are posting genetic/biology nonsense. Not even cutting edge theories that the researchers are arguing about, but simple basic science that has been around and tested for the last hundred years.
Please go back and review your mail order genetics course work before posting more on this current theory.

[shatanka]

OK... xfactor and diomed..ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! ( guess parlo and sam have backed off now there has to be MORE people to cause TROUBLE ON HERE I DO NOT GET IT! JUST STOP!!!!!!!!)
louis may be patient enough in your INSTIGATING and RUDE MALICOUSNESS ON HERE> BUT I PERSONALLY CAN NOT TOLERATE AND DO NOT WANT TO READ ANYMORE OF YOUR B.S TOWARDS HIM PERSONALLY! if you don't like what he has to say..GO AWAY!!!!!! SIMPLE!!!!!!

you have done YOUR BEST to riducule and degrade him and his research and ideas..NONE OF WHICH ARE CAUSING ANY HARM TO YOU OR ANYONE..but you MY FRIENDS ARE CAUSING HARM! there is NO REASON FOR THIS ! he has said NOTHING mean or nasty to you , like you have to him. you are MEAN SPIRITED PEOPLE>>AND I CAN"T STAND IT ANYMORE!

LET LOUIS BE! he has earned his RIGHT to WRITE whatever he feels. he is a published author and written a few books at that. he can use this thread to continue his research or whatever and should be allowed to do so WITHOUT THIS HARRASSMENT!!!!!!!!!

HOW ABOUT THIS..INSTEAD OF BEING A*HOLES>>JUST STAY THE HECK OFF THIS THREAD AND GO SOMEWHERE ELSE AND HURT! there is JUST NO REASON FOR THIS MEANESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP! i am sick of it! if you don't ...I WILL REPORT YOU TO THE MODERATORS MYSELF!!!!!!! HOW'S THAT????

louis you have been TOO KIND IN TAKING THIS CRAP MY FRIEND..ENOUGH IS ENOUGH...I AM SORRY!

[diomed]

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
I don't believe either one of us has belittled Louis at all.
He has flat out admitted farther back on this thread that he appreciates the insight from others.
YOU need to calm down!!
Some have been kinda harsh on him, I agree..But I know I have not.
I just try to speak the truth, and when someone seems to say they are "proving" something, they better have scientific facts to back it up.
I have actually enjoyed many of Louis' posts(loved the Slew tribute)Who are you to tell me where I can post and what I can say?
You just called me an unnecessary name and I don't think it was warranted.

[xfactor fan]

shatanka

Louis can post all he likes about any topic he likes, and he certainly has in the past. He has posted about using bee polen, he has posted about drinking his own urine. I'm not attacking Louis about his health care choices.

Here's the problem. This board and thread is read by many folks of all levels of experience and education. And I'd hate to have novices in the TB business believe that inbreed horses horses can change sex. Which is the topic he is now posting on.

Go back a few pages and look at the comments about Danehill. Inbred to a female family and has a filly head, and looks femine. Ok, he's entitled to his own opinion but when I looked at Danehill he looks like a stallion not a filly. I posted a link to his pedigree page which has a good conformation shot so that folks could make up their own mind on the matter. Louis and I have a difference of opinion on this matter.

I have repeatedly asked Louis to provide examples site where he gets the information he is posting, and for the most part he replies with generalizations. Danehill is one of the few times he's provided an example that can be analyzed.

Report this to the moderators if you like, but you will find that at no time have either diomed or I used profanity, called names, or cast any slurs in Louis's direction.

[Worksoplad]

I think if anyone should be banned from posting it's Shatanka, who incidentally has only posted 16 times, and yet feels he/she has the right to use profanities and shouting to get his/her point across, not to mention grossly inaccurate, if not downright false, statements about Louis' credentials.

[dray33]

I appreciate your concern for louis, but he has posted over 130 pages of his beliefs, and has left room for civil naysayers. Very healthy. It's all good. How else would we learn? There are 6 sides to every story. I wanna hear them all.