Early patterns of the TB.

[xfactor fan]

The kinds of tasks that the modern cow horse needs to do are remarkably similar to those of the ancient warhorse. And folks have been breeding war horses to be quick, agile, carry a man's weight all day in battle. Take a look at some of the pictures of horses that Leonardo da Vince drew. Powerful, muscular big hind ends. This conformation has been around for a long time.

[Pan Zareta]

You have not taken into account the presence of the North American Indians and their horses. Specifically, the Chickasaw and Cherokee tribes whose reputation for horse breeding and training became famous in the early history of our nation.

If you can get a copy of THE QUARTER RUNNING HORSE- America's Oldest Breed by Robert Moorman Denhardt, he explains this in more detail.

Shammy,

(Thanks so much - I'm never going to be able to write or say "Jersey Act" again w/out snickering. )

Mackay-Smith in The Colonial Quarter Race Horse offers a friendly, well-reasoned disagreement (p.272-276) w/ Denhardt's conclusion re. the degree of influence the Chickasaw horse had on the early Quarters. I enthusiastically recommend both their treatments of this topic.

Whatever their actual degree of influence was, Thornton Chard presents some very persuasive facts in support of a west of the Mississippi origin of the Chickasaw horses. ("Did the first Spanish horses landed in Florida leave progeny?" American Anthropologist Vol. 42, No. 1, March 1940, pp. 90-106). Not that it matters much, b/c the source of most of the horses landed in Florida was most likely Spanish stock in the West Indies, and they were little different from the horses brought onto the NorthAm continent earlier, and subsequently captured and used by the Plains tribes.

"Indian horse" blood introduced into any breed after ~1800 should be regarded as at least partly blooded stock, thanks to considerable "transfer", by design or otherwise, betw tribes and settlers on the frontiers. Several messages back someone - diomed, I think - mentioned government sale of Indian horses. Is there a source for that where I could go for more info? I'd love to know how many, if any, of the Comanche horses were sold. Most sources I have indicate Mackenzie slaughtered their main herd at Tule Canyon ~1876.

PZ

[Matchemforever]

At this rate it doesn’t look good for a lot of Native American horse influence:

http://www.tribalcollegejournal.org/the ... leary.html

A few paragraphs down you can find a story on the slaughter of the Crow horses.



Sponenberg on the history of the North American Colonial Spanish Horse. I scanned this one quickly since I found what I think was an older version first that I couldn’t get an address for. This one seems to have some information on DNA that I will have to read later!

http://www.horseweb.com/heritagebreedss ... update.htm



Widespread Origins of Domestic Horse Lineage
(More science that I'm up for)

http://www.mustangs4us.com/Widespread%2 ... neages.pdf

One I’ll have to look at later and even then I probably won’t understand it.



Spanish origins in America, Spanish in the Irish Hobby? Are we getting back to a link there in the TB background? Spain seems to be where all roads meet at the moment.

[Elles]

What breed did this guy gets his huge behind from?
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/coys+bonanza
http://quarterhorselegends.googlepages. ... -large.jpg

And how about this guy’s body type?
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/mr+san+peppy
http://images.orkut.com/orkut/albums/AT ... YRAySw.jpg

[Elles]

This forum also contains a lot of information on the subject of TB roots:
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/TBHeritage/

By the way, in the past I have had lots and lots of discussions with Quarter horse people and Foundation Quarter horse people about the use of TB blood. Most people I spoke with wanted the studbook to be closed to TB's. The TB's are considered to be a different breed that will most likely mess up the QH breed and dilute the genes. I am not totally sure about this though.

[Matchemforever]

Here is a TB sire of racing Quarter Horses. Not that much difference between his type and Coys Bonaza:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/beduino

Honestly, when you look at some TB sires these days, I don't know why they aren't producing QH offspring too, except they can get better stud fees back east. So I think the muscling behind is a mixture but certain TB's sure contributed to it. Look at Custus Rusus (TB) back in Coys Bonaza pedigree:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/custus+rastus

I think a lot of QH people have wanted the stud book closed to TB's for at least 40 years or more. You will find some divergence between what the QH's are bred for and their breeding. Reining, cutting, not so much TB although you will find it in the background through such horses as Leo, Joe Reed II, and others.

I think it's hard to exclude racing from the QH pedigree- even the non-TB ancestors were often used for racing.

Here's an article on arguably one of the best sires of working-type QH of all time, King. Yet even his sire, Zantanon, was raced as I think (?) King was himself. However, from the pedigree, you don't see any TB but it would take more digging then I have time for to find out if some of those ancestors really had TB blood:

http://haystackhill.com/KingPage.html

For a look at some of the greats of the past QH, this site has quite a collections of pictures:

http://www.westphalia-ranch.com/webpage ... inpage.htm

But even they admit that TB was part of the origins of the QH.
(If I were looking for that type of QH, I like a lot of what I see at this ranch)

When I was a kid, I remember that a good QH was an All Around Champion. They had to get points in halter, performance, AND racing.

It's been years since I paid much attention to the QH bloodlines but I suspect that the breed has really branched into different lines for different things.

[Elles]

I know that a number of people think/thought that Traveler was a Thoroughbred and King was fast and so were a number of his offspring. No doubt in my mind that he carried a percentage of Thoroughbred and probably more than one would think from first glance.
I have been reading about Quarter horse pedigrees a lot. Because I ride western myself and I own an appendix Quarter horse: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/docs+lucky+bet . In the past I owned this mare: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/lopez+silver+candy
Speed has always been important in the Quarter horse and there is no speed without a good dose of fast Thoroughbred blood.
http://www.horsesonly.com/articles/default.htm

[diomed]

I have been spending a lot of time picking away at the roots the American TB, American QH, and the British Founders.
This stuff is fascinating.
Firstly, I started following the blood of the successful TB stallions that helped formed the breed, and would go back to the American Families.
Anytime I saw USA under the name and a family number starting with an A("A1, A2, A3, etc), I would pick it apart.
I did the same for the QH pedigrees. Sometimes I had to go back to the TB database to get better info and to follow the family numbers.
Lastly, I would pick away at the families of the great British stallions that were later introduced into the gene pool.
What I found was very interesting indeed.
In regards to the the early American bred TB and the lines that founded the QH, I found that there were many of the same MARES used to build up the breed.
Our boys Little Janus, Jolly Roger, Blackburn's Whip are all over the foundation families of the American TB. The mare Maria West is in founding strains of the QH and the TB, along with some other familiar names.
Pick them apart sometime. You will be amazed.
Now, what I noticed is that in England, Old Janus(Little Janus' sire) is in hardly any pedigrees, if any at all.
The interesting thing is that Old Janus had a full brother(Blank) that was widely used but not in America.
Closely related Mogul was an influence on both shores.
Babraham(another close relative) was used primarily in England.
The interesting thing about Mogul is that no sons survived in English blood, however in America(thanks to Jolly Roger) they thrived. This is an early parallel to Diomed's success(it's just a theory I believe in).
I still think there is something up with that family of Bald Galloway and his full sister Points.
American strains are loaded with it, as are English TBs but they have different channels to it.
I wish a living descendant would be mtDNA tested to see if it has any ties to the #5 family(who has native blood, Hobby blood).
The #23 family of Domino has never been tested either. This family traces to a Hobby mare.
I feel that Hobbies/Galloways are the same.
Perhaps this family carried a phenotype/genotype for fast twitch muscle and heavy behinds just for that purpose.
The native English horses were known for their speed. I believe the breeders imported other strains to increase their endurance without hampering their already natural speed.
Perhaps the genetic build up of all of these speed genes in the background of the TB exploded when met with the crossing of the native American horses?
Beduino could be a throwback to Janus.
He carries this blood through Nasrullah(Nearco and Americus Girl), Orby(double Hanover), Revoked, Depth Charge(we all know how well he worked with QHs), and his fourth dam Appeal(ton of Domino and check out Commando's female family).

Of course, I am purely speculating here but I do see common founders in all the pedigrees....
To me it seems to lead to one particular family.

[aethervox]

I'm going to take a side track for a moment, if people don't mind.

I've been reading through ASB Vol 1 Part 2 which I got via interlibrary loan. Some of the names I've come across are fun, and some make you wonder what the horse was like.

One of my favorites is Wingy-Feet (or Wingyfeet) by Jolly Roger. It's such a cute name that perfectly describes what you'd want a mare to have.

Then there's the stallion Filho da Puto (literally Son of a B**** or Son of a Whore in Portuguese) Was the name a comment on his personality or on his Dam?

Then I ran across this owner who must have liked birds!

All foals are out of Object (1828 - Marshal Ney x Pigeon) by imported Leviathan.

1832, ch. f. Linnet
1834, ch. f. Wren
1835, ch. f. Lark
1836, b. f. Nightingale
1837, ch. f. Thrush
1838, ch. c. Falcon
1839, b. f. Swallow
1840, b. f. Oriole
1841, b. f. Plover

Any other memorable names of early thoroughbreds?

[diomed]

Names I always like or wondered about:
Honeycomb Punch
Spanker
Whip

I noticed that a lot of American foundation mares had an initial behind their names. Like a person who is too lazy to spell their last name out.
Emma C
Lizzie G
Ella D.
Also, I noticed a lot of full names too.
Did they name them after their wives or mistresses?
Lulu Hornton
Alice Carneal
Margaret Wood
Ella Crump

Here's another interesting one; Lady of the Silverkeld Well.
Weird.

[Pan Zareta]

The #23 family of Domino has never been tested either.

It's been tested. The results just haven't been published or made public in any form that correlates mtDNA haplotypes with stud book record or Lowe-numbered families. Addressing an unrelated matter, an informed source indirectly disclosed that family 23's haplotype is neither of those identified as "G" or "Q" by Hill et al. (2002). Requests for further specifics were declined. Imho, it's a safe bet that family 15 (Bald Galloway's tf) has been tested also.

[diomed]

The #23 family of Domino has never been tested either.

It's been tested. The results just haven't been published or made public in any form that correlates mtDNA haplotypes with stud book record or Lowe-numbered families. Addressing an unrelated matter, an informed source indirectly disclosed that family 23's haplotype is neither of those identified as "G" or "Q" by Hill et al. (2002). Requests for further specifics were declined. Imho, it's a safe bet that family 15 (Bald Galloway's tf) has been tested also.

Thanks for that.
Hmmmm.....Why the secrecy about disclosing the results?
Maybe they will have to revamp the studbook?
I would love to see how all the families compare, including American lines.

[Pan Zareta]

Hmmmm.....Why the secrecy about disclosing the results?
Maybe they will have to revamp the studbook?
I would love to see how all the families compare, including American lines.

Some researchers wish to make commercial use of their findings. Correllating haplotype w/ pedigree or family number is somewhat contradictory to that purpose.

I believe both the NorthAm & Brit registries have indicated a lack of interest in revising their historic entries. It's pure speculation, but perhaps they're concerned doing so might prove to be a slippery slope at the end of which is being forced to disclose certain inconsistencies that turned up at the inception of mandatory DNA testing.

[Elles]

Diomed, really fascinating to read what your thougths are with regard to the early TB's (and QH's) and the mixing of the UK and USA strains.

[xfactor fan]

Isn't there a guy in Texas that is is working on putting together a mtDNA database?
I know there is a company that is trying to sell mtDNA typing as part a pedigree/mating package. But how are they going to keep the info secret? Make all the owners sign a non-disclosure agreement?