Secretariat and Buckpasser

[stancaris]

An interesting article appears in the Feb 15, 2014 issue of Blood Horse Magazine about the influence of Buckpasser by Anne Peters.

Anne Peters says that Buckpasser's daughters sent the genetic gold forward, making him a tremendously influential broodmare sire. She goes on to say, "His daughters have produced Hall of Famer Slew O Gold, along with With Approval, Easy Goer, El Gran Señor, Plugged Nickel, Coastal, Touch Gold, Seeking the Gold, Private Account, Fast Play, Believe It, Woodman and Miswaki." Furthermore, two daughters of Buckpasser had been named Broodmares of the Year: Relaxing the dam of Easy Goer, Cadillacing and Easy Now and Toll Booth the dam of seven stakes winners. A third daughter, Passing Mood was Broodmare of the Year in Canada.

She goes on to point out that many of Buckpasser's daughters were outstanding producers: Alluvial, Con Game, Numbered Account, Sex Appeal, Breakfast Bell, Lassie Dear (the second dam of AP Indy and Summer Squall), Spring Adieu, the second dam of Danehill) and Magic, the third dam of Unbridled.

All the above horses have Buckpasser in the X passing position.

In Patterns of Greatness II the following quote is from Alan Porter and Anne Peters regarding Buckpasser:

"Finally it is worth considering just why Buckpasser was relatively unsuccessful as a sire of sires, and yet features as the broodmare sire of so many good colts, who subsequently became influential stallions. Can sex linked inheritance from the superior mare, Busanda, have anything to do with it."

Could Busanda's X chromosome be a contributor to that success? Or was the X thread that Busanda sent to Buckpasser just ordinary and no more important than any other chromosome?

Buckpasser's greatest legacy to the breed is similar to Secretariat's legacy: Both Sec and Buckpasser were relatively unsuccessful as a sire of sires but were extremely influential as a broodmare sire of sires.

[DDT]

Stan

On the surface there is plenty of statistical support for the idea of a super X carried and passed forward by Buckpasser and Secretariat. I am surprised that you have not discussed Touch Gold here on this forum. He fits the pattern of being out of a daughter of Buckpasser and in 2013 achieved his highest ranking to date on the broodmare leading sire list at number 21. His half brother, With Approval has also made the broodmare sire's list many times and both of these stallions were Canadian champions and are in the Canadian Hall of Fame. You did mention Commissioner in another thread, a 3 year old colt sired by A.P. Indy out of a Touch Gold mare who is slated to run in the upcoming Fountain of Youth at Gulfstream. The one thing that you and others continue to ignore is the fact that the eight individual horses listed by you that made the top 15 broodmare sire's list in 2013 were all superior runners and champion or leading sires with high stud fees which creates a situation whereby all of them covered more quality mares than "run of the mill" mares. Touch Gold stood in Kentucky for 10 years and covered an average of 100 mares a year for the first 9 years at 50K, 30K and 10K his last year before moving to New York, he returns to Kentucky this year. I am positive we are just beginning to see his success as a broodmare sire and having Buckpasser in the X passing position could certainly be an advantage, at least statistically. I would love to see Commissioner not only make it to the Derby but win it.

DDT

[Pan Zareta]

An interesting article appears in the Feb 15, 2014 issue of Blood Horse Magazine about the influence of Buckpasser by Anne Peters...

Appeals to authority prove nothing, Stan. Furthermore, in fairness to the authors of Patterns of Greatness II you ought to have pointed out that it was published in 1995, long before it was known that the X chromosome has at best a minor role in the genetics of elite racing performance and therefore broodmare sire success.

General sire and broodmare sire success are defined by progeny racing performance/earnings. The major genetic factors relevant to that performance are on the autosomes, not on the X. Unlike the X, autosomes are inherited by both genders in equal measure from sire and dam. Ergo, the genetic factors relevant to broodmare sire success cannot be adequately estimated by looking only at the bottom half of successful broodmare sire pedigrees, and then at only 7 of the 15 sire positions therein.

Doing that completely obscures the fact that Northern Dancer and Mr. Prospector are found far more often than Buckpasser in the first three generations of the pedigrees of the 31 stallions that have appeared in one or more years among the top 15 leading North American broodmare sires 2007-2013. Your inherent presumption that Buckpasser in 2d generation, rather than Mr. P. in 1st gen., was the primary determinant of the broodmare sire success of Miswaki, Seeking the Gold, and Woodman is unjustified and highly implausible.

Buckpasser usually appears via daughters, especially in the pedigrees of sires & dams in the top tier of the TB breeding population, for the simple reason that he was not as successful as some of his peers as a general sire. There were fewer elite racers among his overall progeny. Sons face far stricter criteria for entry into and retention within that top breeding tier than daughters. His daughters had much better breeding opportunities than his sons.

The frequency with which Buckpasser is found in x passing positions is incidental to those facts. The frequency with which he appears in the pedigrees of top sires and broodmare sires is due in no small measure to the quality of his consorts. He covered only the very best mares. They and/or their dams or full sisters were quite capable, without his help, of producing foals that went on to great success on the track and in the stud. That's not to say that Buckpasser was no genetic help, rather to point out that it's unlikely he had to do much 'heavy lifting' in that respect.

[stancaris]

Pan Zareta wrote, "Appeals to authority prove nothing, Stan. Furthermore, in fairness to the authors of Patterns of Greatness II you ought to have pointed out that it was published in 1995, long before it was known that the X chromosome has at best a minor role in the genetics of elite racing performance and therefore broodmare sire success."


Really, so quoting Alan Porter and Anne Peters carries no clout whatsoever.

Really, it is known that the X chromosome has at best a minor role in the genetics of elite racing performance.

Known by whom. What geneticists do you know that will back up your blanket statement that degrades the X chromosome to playing only a minor role. You state that as if it were a fact known by all. Really! Is the scientific community willing to accept your blanket statement that the X chromosome at best only plays only a minor role in elite horse racing performance. Have Alan Porter and Anne Peters changed their mind about what they said about Buckpasser and Secretariat in their book in reference to sex linked traits passed on to Buckpasser from the great mare, Busanda. Will they now say that Busanda's X was run of the mill based on the available genomic evidence of today.

Perhaps you can contact Alan Porter and Anne Peters and ask them to back you up on your all inclusive implication that everyone knows that the X chromosome has at best only a minor role in the genetics of elite racing performance and therefore broodmare sire success. Maybe they can make a statement on this forum that can clear up this matter.

I'll stay with my post from Tues Feb 18, 2014 at 8:18 PM as my stance on this matter.

[Pan Zareta]

Really, so quoting Alan Porter and Anne Peters carries no clout whatsoever.

Really, it is known that the X chromosome has at best a minor role in the genetics of elite racing performance.
...[Etc.]

Appeals to authority have no "clout" unless they prove your claim that the X is of major relevance to broodmare sire success. Only genome-based evidence can prove that but, as you were informed 2+ years ago by someone actively engaged in genome-based analysis of the TB, that evidence indicates that the genetic variants of greatest relevance to elite performance and therefore broodmare sire success are on the autosomes, not the x.

Even though that finding is consistent with facts readily apparent from examination of leading broodmare sire pedigrees with an unbiased eye it doesn't support your claim. So you variously deny it, ignore it, paraphrase it inaccurately, parse details out of context to put a different spin on them, or try to distract and provoke with loaded statements and questions and absurd demands.

If you want to know what the research community has to say, or not, about the equine x, then ask them, and/or acquaint yourself with their publications, presentations, and patent applications. If you turn up something that proves your claim, by all means resume the discussion. Otherwise, take Linda_d's sage advice and find a new topic.

[stancaris]

Circumstantial evidence supports the idea that the X chromosome is important to broodmare sire success. I do not believe that the X chromosome that Busanda gave to Buckpasser was just ordinary. And that X was passed on to all his daughters but None of his sons.Genomic research
has discovered variants on the X that relate to elite performance in thoroughbreds and one of these variants reached statistical significance.

You made the statement that it is a known fact that the X has at best just a minor role in broodmare sire success. Do geneticists really believe it plays such an insignificant role. If so quote some major geneticists that will back you up on this view.

What proof do you have that the x is really not very important at all?

[DDT]

Stan

First of all, no one has stated that the X chromosome is not very important at all, what most of us disagree with is that the X chromosome is not a primary factor in broodmare sire success. If, as you believe, Busanda's X was a primary factor in Buckpasser's success as a broodmare sire, why did Bupers and Controlling fail to exhibit that type of success as broodmare sires?

DDT

[stancaris]

DDT: You asked why didn't Bupers and Controlling have the same influence since they also received an X chromosome from Busanda?

The X chromosome that Buckpasser received from Busanda was different than the X chromosome that Bupers or Controlling received. Recombination of genes (crossing over of genes from one X to the other during meiosis) occurs so that X that Busanda sends to Bupers, Controlling or any other son is not identical to the X that she sent to Buckpasser. In fact, every time Busanda got a foal that foal has a different combination of genes on the X chromosome she transmits to these foals.

A Quote from Anne Peters article from the Feb 15, 2014 Bloodhorse magazine about Buckpasser follows:

"Buckpasser got his revenge, as many "filly sires", do, when his daughters sent the genetic gold forward, making him a tremendously infuentiial broodmare sire."

The circumstantial evidence given in my post on Feb 18th above is overwhelmingly in favor of the idea that Buckasser's X that he received from his dam, Busanda, was not just run of the mill or ordinary. And did NOT play just a minor role at best in regards to his tremendous influence as a broodmare sire.

[DDT]

Stan

I know that each egg produced by any mare is unique to that egg including the genes carried by the X, even the X passed by a stallion is different due to recombination with his Y, even though that difference is slight. These facts alone should indicate to you that as of yet the idea of a super X has not been confirmed by science.

DDT

[stancaris]

DDT: Yes, that is true but the overwhelming evidence from Buckpasser's tremendous influence by way of his daughters is certainly food for thought. He received an absolute best fantastic 3.23 AEI (average earnings index) as a broodmare sire which appeared in the boodhorse magazine of Nov 17, 2001. The best of all broodmare sires (cumulative) at that time. He led the broodmare sire list 4 times. He sent Busanda's X to 100% of his daughters which certainly had more than a minor influence as to why his daughters' progeny earned big bucks on the track. On the average his daughter's progeny carried 50% of Buckpasser's original X chromosome.

Wouldn't it be interesting to dig up some part of Buckpasser's bones and analyze his cells DNA particularly on his X chromosome. Maybe, just maybe, there were some super genes on that X.

[DDT]

Stan

You continue to ignore that the covering sire supplies 50% of the genetic makeup of each horse. You say that Buckpasser's status as leading broodomare sire 4 times points to his greatness, what about the greatness of Sir Gallahad III, leading broodmare sire 11 times, Princequillo 8 times and Mr. Prospector 9 times? Again, you do not consider the fact that of the 4 brooddmare sires that have Buckpasser in an X passing position that appear on the leading broodmare sires list most often 3 were sired by Mr. Prospector and 1 by a son of Mr. Prospector. I will admit that it is very good to see you finally use the term "maybe" when you discuss the influence of the X chromosome transmitted by Buckpasser to all of his daughters. I would hope that your recognition of the influence of covering sires will enter this ongoing discussion sooner or later.

DDT

[stancaris]

DDT: Of course, covering sires have an influence on broodmare sire success. And they do send 50% of their DNA to a foal.

However, this discussion is about Pan Zareta's view that the X chromosome is at best only a minor role player in broodmare sire success and my view that the X chromosome is important to broodmare sire success. Some of your posts have indicated that you think the X is more than a minor role player in broodmare sire success. Is that your take on this matter at this time or do you agree with Pan Zareta?

My post from Feb 18th above pretty much summarizes my stance on this matter. I do not believe that the X chromosome sent to Buckpasser from his dam Busanda was just ordinary and played only a minor role at best in his success as a broodmare sire. I cannot prove that with information from genomic research which his under lock and key but then again the latest genomic research does NOT prove that the X chromosome at best only plays a minor role in broodmare sire success.

Your view about Mr. Prospector being found in the sire line of 4 of the leading broodmare sires is a good point and he certainly was an influence in that regard but that influence does NOT negate the value of the X chromosome making it just a minor role player at best regarding broodmare sire success.

[DDT]

Stan

Although some of my posts lean toward your thinking concerning the X chromosome I absolutely agree with Pan Zareta that thus far genomic science has not been able to justify great influence from the X going to broodmare success. When you look at all the aspects of what makes a leading broodmare sire, and there are many, the composition of the X can be eliminated as a primary factor for that success. When we look at Buckpasser's record as a broodmare sire there are few, if any, broodmare sires that can match his accomplishments, especially if you consider the total number of daughters in production, however, when you look at the quality of mares he covered, and then the quality of the stallions utilized to cover those mares, it is very difficult to believe that the genes carried on his X chromosome are a primary reason for the success of his daughters in the breeding shed.

I want you to do me a favor, google pedigreepost.net and on the face page there is an article about mtDNA, I would like to know what you think about this article.

DDT

[stancaris]

DDT: Are you trying to get me to stop posting any more information regarding the X chromosome? Is that why you asked me to read and give my interpretation of the Mt-DNA article?

OK: Will do. But one more note on the X chromosome discussion---

In the Mares in Great Sires Thread which begins on page 3 second from the bottom of that page Byron Rogers responded to one of my statements which appears in his post of Oct 25, 2011 at 1:38 PM.

My statement was as follows: Assuming the X chromosome does not carry a gene for Heart size as Byron Rogers professes. It still is a powerful carrier of super genes because it is these super genes on the X that make a broodmare sire successful in getting superlative daughters who in turn get well above average sons and daughters.

Byron Rogers response to the above:

"I think I said from my first post on this thread that there are important variants on the X Chromosome for performance. Not sure I would call them "super genes" but I would call them "important alleles". They just don't seem to have anything to do with heart size/function."

My Oh MY! Here Rogers clearly states that there are important variants on the X Chromosome for performance. And although he is not willing to call them super genes, he does state that they are important alleles.

So, Busanda's X according to Byron Rogers carried important alleles for racing performance. So the X chromosome is important in broodmare sire success after all.

It gets down to two terms: primary influence or important influence. I'll give an inch or two. Do you remember when I said dictates or contributes to broodmare sire success? Well, take away dictates and put in the X is an important contributor to broodmare sire success.


Regarding Mt-DNA. I think certain families do well because Mt-DNA that is carried forward in that family is an important contributor to long distance ability. I have several pages related to that concept in my book-Analyzing The Triple Crown and derived some very strong impact values from research on that topic. Strong Factoid: In the last 34 years more than 40% of the Derby winners since 1974 belonged to family 1 or family 23b.

[DDT]

Stan

I am not trying to get you to do anything, I think the article is very good, that's all. I think you should keep in mind the fact that Rogers does not do the genetic research himself, and his statements reflect what his researchers discover and relate to him, and he will not be specific unless you are willing to pay a fee to obtain the necessary reports and data.

DDT