The Official "Speed Gene" thread.

[xfactor fan]

Pan Zareta,

What was the perceived advantage of the "bulldog" type of Quarter Horse over the other types?

[Pan Zareta]

What was the perceived advantage of the "bulldog" type of Quarter Horse over the other types?

A small minority of the founding AQHA directors regarded it as the best type of using horse, 'using' being more or less synonymous with ranch work. Some also believed the 'bulldog' type to be the purest genetic heir of the 17th cent. colonial American short dash racers.

[diomed]

What was the perceived advantage of the "bulldog" type of Quarter Horse over the other types?

A small minority of the founding AQHA directors regarded it as the best type of using horse, 'using' being more or less synonymous with ranch work. Some also believed the 'bulldog' type to be the purest genetic heir of the 17th cent. colonial American short dash racers.

Perhaps pure descendant/prototypes of imported(but undocumented-hinted by Mackay-Smith) hobbies? Great saddle/work horses were noted to be amblers.

[xfactor fan]

But didn't the Hobby amble? Some sort of lateral gait? Did the bulldog QH amble? I've never seen a current QH do anything but trot.

And just as a side note, ran across a magazine from the remount/army horse folks. There was an explanation on why the army wanted only trotting horses. Apparently it is easier to keep standard pace and distance with trotters. There is such a variation of strides and speeds with the lateral paces that it was difficult to keep a formation together.

[Pan Zareta]

Perhaps pure descendant/prototypes of imported(but undocumented-hinted by Mackay-Smith) hobbies? Great saddle/work horses were noted to be amblers.

There is documentation for some of the anonymous (by name and usually by type) pre-TB horses sent from Britain to the NorthAm colonies, ships' manifests, personal records, avts. for sale, and the like. But the notion that the 'bulldog' type was their purest early 20th cent. genetic representative is unproven romantic fiction. The early imports that were the best performers, regardless of discipline, are, imho, unlikely to have exerted a heavy influence on the average ranch horse of the late 19th/early 20th cent. By most contemporaneous accounts that horse was generally not of particularly high quality (and, in contrast to the 17th cent. colonial short dash racers, it probably did owe a significant genetic 'debt' to feral descendants of horses brought to Mexico in the 16th cent.). If the average 'bulldog' type of the early 20th cent. had been as superior as the early AQHA sentimentalists would have us believe there would have been no need for the Army Remount program, and the King Ranch et al. probably would not have found it necessary to engage in major 'makeovers' of their horse herds.

But didn't the Hobby amble? Some sort of lateral gait? Did the bulldog QH amble? I've never seen a current QH do anything but trot.

Yes, the Hobby is supposed to have been an ambler. I've ridden two mares, one QH, one TB, that would occasionally break into a rack (usually when being restrained from increasing their pace). A rack and an amble are both 4-beat gaits and are regarded by many as synonymous terms.

[xfactor fan]

I've always thought that the Hobby was a component in the formation of the Nagarasat (sp) pacer. Which in turn was part of genetic mix that went into the standardbred, saddlehorse, walkers, and other gaited horses.

Morgans which also came out of this mix, mostly trot, but there are some that gait.

I ran across a description of an Arabian stallion that was 7 gaited, he had the standard, walk, trot, canter and gallop, and also paced, racked, and had a running walk.

[vineyridge]

I found another European stallion who had an American mother at the turn of the 20th Century--Graf Ferry (GER). He's actually got a line to Hunting Squirrel. And Nera di Bicci was another Tesio bred daughter of Catnip who went to Germany through her daughter, Nella Da Gubbio--who interestingly enough has Orby (American dam) as her tail male Grandsire.

Do you suppose Tesio found something he liked in the US TB lines that made their way to Europe?

[Shammy Davis]

I've read and re-read Tesio and often thought, did he ever specifically acknowledge the traits he sought in either his mares or stallions? I've gotten very little substance from his writing. Certainly nothing more than from a good conformation book, study, or magazine article. You've got to think he was looking for specifics.

[xfactor fan]

I've always thought that Tesio was trying to fit what he was doing into the framework of the science of his day. Very simple Mendelian genetics.

What if Tesio was looking at or for C and T? He would spend hours watching his horses. His writing talks about "nervous energy". He found that his best breeders were siblings of his best racers. And his conclusion was that his racers used up all their "nervous energy" at the race track, leaving nothing for their foals.

Lets suppose that Tesio's best racers were C/T. They would of course not breed true. Easiest way to get a C/T result is to breed CC to TT. If the frequency of C is or was low in the population breeding C/T to T/T would result in half C/T, and half T/T. And depending on the genetics of his horses, it might very well be that his breeding worked best with siblings of his C/T racers.

This in turn could have lead the the mistaken conclusion about the cause of what he was seeing, again trying to fit observations into the framework of the science of the time. Think Mary Shelly and Frankenstein and the magic sparking life with electricity. The theory of "nervous energy" was very well know during Tesio's time.

Like Shammy, I've come to the conclusion that what Tesio said he was doing wasn't what he was doing.

[Shammy Davis]

You know if I lived closer to track, I'd be spending my mornings with a hot a cup of coffee looking over the horses as the move from and to the backstretch. Maybe I'd take a few pictures and then I go home an check their form. I've always had the feeling, because of what I've read and my journeyman experience, that in the majority of cases form is going to match a particular conformation. Successful buyers and trainers have a picture of what they are looking for. I don't think they make exceptions to their rules. I think the same was the case with Tesio, but I don't think he explained it well. Estes probably came as close to explaining it as anyone, but even he painted the subject with a broad brush. I don't think we should look at TB as a whole balanced anatomy. My personal opinion is that athleticism is more about specific proportions. I think symmetry has something to do with, but I also believe that racehorse athleticism is a result of significant physical characteristics. Short cannons, long neck, et al. Speed conformation is one type and then there are the middle to long stayers. Those who consistently select winners know exactly what specific characteristics they require and if a horse has those, they know they can live with the rest. Over acheiving equine athletes are the smarter horses.

The key is the picture. Bloodstock science maynot be as complicated as we make it. You just have to know what to look for.

[xfactor fan]

Shammy,

I was thinking along the lines of reaction time, not over all conformation. But you of course are correct.

I find it interesting that science is pointing at Tesio line horses as being the source of the C gene in modern TB's. Also interesting that many of the historic sires were T/T. Was Tesio selecting for C, and calling it something else? Or thinking it was something else?

In Italy there was a fever that was thought to come from exposure to bad night air. In fact the disease was named "Mal Ariea", we know this as Malaria. The healers of the time kept windows shut at night to keep out the "bad air" . And they were correct, keeping windows open at night was bad for the health. But not because of the air. But because of the mosquitoes in the air coming out to feed and spreading Malaria. Correct observation, incorrect conclusion.

Happens att the time, and it might have happened with Tesio.

[Shammy Davis]

Tesio really didn't say anything when it came to breeding. At least nothing that took the student of equine breeding any further that it was in his day.

One other issue that we disregard when considering athleticism in the horse is the subject of intelligence. I've got a couple of mares here, both $100K plus winners and both hard knockers at the claiming and allowance levels. They are conformation train wrecks.

One was a stayer and one was sprinter. The stayer has a sprint dosage and the sprinter has a stayer dosage. There are lots of other paper descrepancies, but what sets these two apart from the other lower level winning mares here, is they are extremely intelligence. Put in the right class any horse as the potential of winning, but it the strength of their intelligence that carries them consistently into the money.

I'm not of the mind that the size of the head or the space between the eyes is a categorical definition of intelligence, but I guess it is a starting point.

I am reminded that horsemen who have spent their lives in the industry know what they are looking for. We are seeing a great many younger individuals (trainers, vets, agents, breeders, et al) wandering the backstretches and farms across NA and they don't have the experience to know exactly what they are looking for. That could be the reason we're seeing numerous undertrained horses racing and getting injured.

I've only read one book or two books where glimpses of a relevant conformation were exposed. One was "Winning Trainers" by Ross Staaden and the other was "Traits of a Winner" by Carl Nafzger.

I chuckle when I see Louis' quotes from Colonel John Wall. Although Wall did write about the TB, his experiences with the horse were not totally dedicated to the TB or any particular breed. I've got copies of the old Fort Riley Cavalry School manuals and you can tell Colonel Wall had definitely read them. Like with Tesio, another case when maybe the windows should have been closed to keep out the bad night air.

[vineyridge]

If anyone has 3k bucks to invest, abebooks has listed a complete set of Fairfax Harrison's Early American Turf Stock.

[Shammy Davis]

Vineyridge wrote:

If anyone has 3k bucks to invest, abebooks has listed a complete set of Fairfax Harrison's Early American Turf Stock.

I'm playing the mega lottery at $500 million, so let me get back to you on this.

[griff]

Shammy

I always thought "intelligent horse" was a oxymoron.

My guess is their intelligence level is somewhere around that of a chicken or a sheep. Certainly not as sharp as a goat or a mule.

Or should i have posted this in your mud slinging trend?/

grff