Louis's Blog on Inbreeding

[louis finochio]

FLASHING FORWARD (USA) b. F, 2004 DP = 4-4-12-0-0 (20) DI = 2.33 CD = 0.60 - 9 Starts, 3 Wins, 2 Places, 1 Shows Career Earnings: $69,280

Owner: Tom Grether Farms Inc.
Breeder: William H. Stewart
State Bred: FL
Winnings: 9 Starts: 3 - 2 - 1, $69,280

Foaled January 13, 2004.
OBSAPR06 $77,000
Won three straight races over three different surfaces.
Euthanized after breaking her knee in a race at Santa Anita, December 29, 2008.

FLASHING FORWARD b. F. 2004
Outflanker---Flashy Bold Lady, by Bold n Flashy

FF had 13 crosses Ph. thru her sires & was inbred 5 X 5 Native Dancer Polynesian branch Ph.---4 X 4 X 5 Nearctic Nearco branch Ph.---4 X 5 RAN Polynesian branch Ph.---3 X 4 Briartic Nearco branch Ph.
FF is another example of when inbreeding is carried too far it creates unsoundness.
When there is a rash of injuries & breakdowns, the 1st thing they do is inspect the racing surface, why dont they do a bone density test on these tb to see if there is a correlation connection of low bone density & inbreeding vs a tb that was bred from an outcross mating.

[diomed]

5 less starts than Sunday Silence.
SS suffered a ligament injury. Do ligament injuries count towards unsoundness? Don't weak ligaments often lead to damage to bones?
Why do you consider SS so sound? He was retired due to injury after all.

[Shammy Davis]

WARNING: THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS THREAD IS UNSCIENTIFIC AND UNTESTED. ANY REPRESENTATION TO THE CONTRARY IS ANATHEMA TO GOOD JUDGMENT AND COMMON SENSE WHEN BREEDING THOROUGHBRED RACEHORSES.

[louis finochio]

I dont judge a stallions soundness by his lifetime starts, i judge his progeny's lifetime starts to get a curve of his soundness progeny. Lets look at SS progeny that had the most lifetime starts. SS progeny started---50 times twice---51---52---53 twice---54---55---56---57---59---60---65---62---72---75 twice---76---79---83---86---87.

SS had 27 crosses NP from a possible 32 thru his sires & dams. Thats why SS progeny inherited his soundness & were able to attain that many lifetime starts. Most of those mares that were bred to SS, descended from the sire line of Ph, but the prolific number of NP sire lines in SS immediate family offset the 5 crosses of Ph. in SS family & those mares Of Ph. descent that were the dams of SS soundness progeny.

[BenB]

Notice that the offspring from SS ran almost exclusively in Japan.
In Japan all med,s are a class 1 verdict. So no bute lasix steroids nor anything else.
Notice that SS offspring raced almost exclusively on TURF,GRASS etc
Notice that they almost EXCLUSIVELY RACE on distances from 8 furlong and up, and foremost on the classic european distances at about 12 furlongs and further.

NOTICE ALSO STEROIDS are DEFRAGMANTLE TO BONES in other words
the inside from the bones are eaten up by steroids.

THIS is the almost only reason for so many breakdowns in the us,
O>C>D is an other entity

HONG KONG IS RACING THE WHOLE YEAR

[louis finochio]

How would those Fashion-Breds fare in Japan, would the grass & those classic distances give them soundness & more lifetime starts ? I doubt it, as those Euro stallions Danehill Dancer, Galileo, Rock of Gibraltar, were inbred to those foundation stallions & mares which were Mr. P---RAN---Native Dancer---ND---Natalma---Bold Ruler---Buckpasser, The result was A high % of Fashion Bred progeny that were unraced. The Euro training methods & grass didnt give those tb soundness.

It all starts with pedigree as we have seen when an outcross of NP is added to a mating to break up the domination of inbreeding to those Ph. sire line stallions & mares. Look at the pedigrees of Pebbles & Quoja Board, u will not find any Fashion inbreeding in their family's.

[BenB]

Louis:

We have one AP INDY in our country and quess what: he is a bleeder that,s truly an unsound horse, as this is an very highly inherited problem and taken through the breed

Galileo is crowned two times champion sire, what do you want more?

In Zarkava<s ped there is more than enough ND, but she earned more than 4 milj dollars, what would you expect her more to do

[diomed]

Louis:

We have one AP INDY in our country and quess what: he is a bleeder.

Galileo is crowned two times champion sire, what do you want more?

In Zarkava<s ped there is more than enough ND, but she earned more than 4 milj dollars, what would you expect her more to do

Funny that you mention bleeders.
Most pedigree historians feel that the TB inherited that from Herod, who BTW, is NOT the Phalaris line. I mean, that would apply if you look at sirelines only, like louis does.
Funny how Louis just 'assumes' that a horse inherits their unsoundness based on his theory, therefore, he won't even do a statistical study to see if the environment is playing a major issue.
Tunnel vision.

[parlo]

... Tunnel vision

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_perception

[louis finochio]

SS did not retire from racing because of injury, the japanese made a huge offer for him to stand across the pond, & was sold to them at an undisclosed figure.

[diomed]

SS did not retire from racing because of injury, the japanese made a huge offer for him to stand across the pond, & was sold to them at an undisclosed figure.

He DID retire due to an injury!
Do you make this stuff up as you go along?
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE0DA103BF930A3575BC0A966958260&sec=&spon=

[louis finochio]

my friend jake worked for C. Whittingham, he told me what i posted, i will tell jake the snake his memory is slipping. thanks for posting the real truth, louis.

[BenB]

MY THESIS IS :

If all the bleeders would be taken out of the competion in the US the amount of fatal track injuries would be dramatically down.

If all the horses would be X rayed before the races and scrathed if something like scraves small fractures would be noticed than the fatal injuries would be dramatically down aswell.

But in the US horses are giving BUTE ,LASIX, in a layoff time plenty of steriods, all these things are hiding problems seen in horses.

So give me a shot, I cannot and will not accept this ever.

It is just legal freud but only in the US

[gc 53]

My wife and I are new to Thoroughbreds. As I have stated in a post elsewhere. We have been involved in American Saddlebreds for 30 yrs.
We bought a 3 yr old mare last year off the track. And have since acquired the Royal Academy son, Air Academy. He needed a new home and I wanted a TB stallion to work with..not for running any longer.

I read most of the first page of this thread. Then went to the last page to see what was still being said.

In order to learn more about the Breed and the Sport, I wanted to ask about the bloodlines and the soundness issues along with health points such as "bleeders" being an inherent fact. Size of the cannon bone and related structural questions. I find this Forum to be Fantastic with so many people offering their experience and help.So please excuse me, if this post I'm submitting isn't following along with the flow of the rest of this discussion and I'll ask this under another area of the Forum.

I have been coaching Olympic style weightlifting and track and field, mostly throwers.So understand the uses and issues with steroids after almost 40 yrs of being around National / International athletes.

Gary

[diomed]

Welcome gc 53!
Have you had a chance to check out the Pedigree Analysis section of this board? There are some very interesting threads over there discussing other breeds as well.
As far as bone density, etc..I don't think there has been enough scientific study on this(if any at all). It would be a good idea IMO.
And Ben B's last post on drug use, steroids, etc is an excellent point.

My best advise would be to soak in as much as you can and form your own opinions. No one has ever found the true answer to many questions regarding TB inheritance. It's an inexact science to say the least.
At least they have the horse genome in the lab. There should be some interesting findings in the future with that!