Louis's Blog on Inbreeding

[louis finochio]

VENTURA (USA) dkb/br. F, 2004 DP = 14-2-12-0-2 (30) DI = 2.75 CD = 0.87 - 15 Starts, 8 Wins, 4 Places, 1 Shows Career Earnings: $1,351,235

Owner: Juddmonte Farms
Breeder: Juddmonte Farms, Inc.
State Bred: KY
Winnings: 15 Starts: 8 - 4 - 1, $1,351,235

At 3:
Won Hyde S. (L,GB,8F)
At 4:
Won Just a Game S. (G1,Bel,8FT), Madison S. (G2,Kee,7F), Breeders' Cup Filly & Mare Sprint (OSA,7F)
2nd CashCall Mile Inv. S. (G2,Hol,8FT), Woodbine Mile (G1,Wo,8FT)
3rd Churchill Distaff Turf Mile S. (G3,CD,8FT)

At 5:
Won Santa Monica H. (G1,SA,7F)

Foaled January 31, 2004.
First eight career races in Great Britain.

VENTURA br. F 2004
Chester House---Estala, by Be My Guest

Ventura has 21 crosses NP---11 crosses Ph. thru her sires & dams. V is inbred 3 X 4 ND Nearco branch Ph.---4 X 5 Native Dancer Polynesian branch Ph.---5 X 5 Nearco branch Ph.
V is a Fashion Bred with her intense inbreeding of those Ph. sire line foundation stallions. V right & left wing are a balance of speed & stamina.

[louis finochio]

Welcome GC 53, I would say GC is your initials, & 53 is your year of birth.
I have been a track & field fan all my life. I love the sport.

I have worked on the backstretch foe 39 years as a vendor, i have been a student of pedigrees for 55 years, i have seen the soundness & conformation changes thru inbreeding as our tb of today are not as sound as years ago when we had 15 different sire lines to use for an outcross to breed a sound athlete. Hope this thread helps u in your quest to breed & race the elusive champion, Louis.

[gc 53]

Thanks for the warm welcome. I am thoroughly enjoying the discussions that I have found on this Forum.
Louis you are correct with my initials. My name is Gary Cooper and Sept. 28th, 1953 is my birthday......feel free to put it on your calendar...Blue is my color and XXL fits pretty good....LOL.
I have purchased a few books: Please feel free to recommend others.
These are:
Professional Care of the Racehorse..T. A. Landers.
Dynasties Great Thoroughbred Stallions...Edward L. Bowen.
Beyond the Track. ..Anna Morgan Ford.

I have also ordered a Dvd:
ON THE MUSCLE: A PORTRAIT OF A THOROUGHBRED RACING STABLE.

I have no idea how good it is as I haven't received it yet. If anyone has viewed it I'd like to know what they thought.
I have also purchased the Rodney Jenkins Selecting Hunters and Jumpers, a VHS tape off Ebay a while back. And it's very interesting as he explains aspects of the Thoroughbreds comfirmation along with injuries etc.

Besides having been involved with Saddlebreds, we also bred and showed Bullmastiffs and Bouvier Des Flandres, along with working them for tracking and obedience...So I find the breeding and genetics really interesting.
Gary

[parlo]

... i have seen the soundness & conformation changes thru inbreeding as our tb of today are not as sound as years ago when we had 15 different sire lines to use for an outcross to breed a sound athlete. ...

A never ending treadmill with just one boring sentence and without any developement and proof since some 190 pages ... and each day a new fool arises to become a believer.

The complete environment of racing and breeding has changed during the recent 20-30 years and little old boy from Califonia sees just a single reason of all the misery. Ridiculous ... crazy ...

[louis finochio]

Gary: those are excellent books he ordered, you will broaden your knowledge into those fields. Read every book on breeding that you can, as one's knowledge is always seeking and searching for more information to breed those sound superior runners. All the best, louis.

[louis finochio]

Not once but thousands of times in the history of our sport has a breeder who got away with the first cross tried to repeat the performance with a second by bringing in another unrelated stallion to breed with the progeny of the first cross. The path of disappointment is littered with the remnants of their smashed hopes and ambitions. Why did this happen?

Because they fail to remember that wears a first cross invigorates the blood, even of a champion, a second cross starts to decline and deterioration of a family.

[louis finochio]

COFFEEINPARIS (USA) dkb/br. F, 2003 DP = 7-3-6-0-0 (16) DI = 4.33 CD = 1.06

Breeder: Applebite Farms
State Bred: CA

CIP was unraced Fashion Bred with 10 crosses Ph. & was inbred to the same foundation stallions that are responsible for the majority of injuries & breakdowns & unraced.
CIP was inbred 5 X 5 Bold Ruler Nearco branch Ph.---4 X 5 RAN Polynesian branch Ph.---4 X 4 Secretariat Nearco branch Ph.---4 X 5 ND Nearco branch Ph.---3 X 4 Mr. P. Polynesian branch Ph.
CIP was sired by Western Fame---Expensive Cofee, by Fortunate Prospect.

[docjocoy]

Poor Applebite, CA breeding farm now relegated to Louis' "Phalaris Wall of Shame." How ironic that Western Fame has been put into a pedigree that Louis considers a "Fashion-bred." Maybe that will be good for him, not that he has been unsuccessful at the regional level. But at the regional level everyone is just doing the best they can to put the best pedigree they can on the ground. And most regional stallions are several generations removed from Louis' fashion-breds, almost all grandsons or brothers of the greats.
Sorry, it just struck me the wrong way that Louis would pick on Western Fame this morning. With all the candidates he could pick on from the "fashionable" kentucky farms to go after an Applebite breeding, where something other than "fashionbredness" probably explains the mare and her sibs not starting. I really have no connection to Applebite other than being a CA breeder. Just knowing how tough it is to make breeding decisions from what is available in the state, and once again saying that we're just doing the best we can.

[xfactor fan]

Side Effects of Steroid use in Humans

Although anabolic androgenic steroids may increase lean muscle mass, strength, and the ability to train longer and harder, the serious side effects of steroids are many and may not be reversible. The minor side effects of steroid use include acne, oily skin, excess hair growth, and deepening of the voice. The major side effects of steroid use include an increased risk of cancer, increased risk of heart and liver disease, jaundice, fluid retention, reduction in HDL-C (“good cholesterol”), high blood pressure, changes in blood coagulation, increased risk of atherosclerosis, swelling of the soft tissues of the extremities (edema), and obstructive sleep apnea.

Side effects specific to men can include testicular atrophy or the shrinking of the testicles, reduced sperm count, infertility, baldness, and the development of breasts. For women, side effects can include enlargement of the clitoris, changes in the body contour growth of facial hair, disruption of the menstrual cycle, deepened voice and infertility.

An increase in androgenic (male) hormones may also lead to aggressive behavior. Research also indicates that steroid users often suffer from paranoid jealousy, extreme irritability, delusions, and impaired judgment stemming from feelings of invincibility.

Adolescents who abuse steroids are at a significant risk of suffering irreversible side effects, including stunted growth, accelerated puberty changes and abnormal sexual development. Adolescent girls in particular may suffer from severe acne, excessive body and facial hair, deepened voice, permanent enlargement of the clitoris, disruption of the menstrual cycle, and permanent infertility.

Louis, refusing to even look at drug use as a cause in the changes in the modern TB is at best careless, and at worst tragically deluded.

Anyone ever looked at the steroid side effect of edema, changes in blood coagulation and treating the "symptoms" with Lasix?

How many of the behavior problems in modern TB's are due to extreme irritability, delusions, and impaired judgment? In fact how many breakdowns are due to a horse failing to pull up and stop at the first sign of injury? Is this Steroid related?

Fertility problems? Maybe War Emblem's problems have more to due to steroid abuse than lack of sex drive. And the difficulty getting top race mares in foal. Not to mention Cigar, still shooting blanks at the Kentucky Horse Park.

Louis, what just about everyone has been trying to tell you over the course of this endless thread, is that blaming one horse many generations back in a pedigree is not the only answer. Don't let your obsession with P vs NP bloodlines blind you to other possibilities.

For novices reading this thread for the first time, please don't buy into this simplistic world view. TB racehorses are genetically complex, and like every other organic organism on the planet influenced by their environment.

[parlo]

@xfactor fan: Thanks! The best posting for a long time in this thread.

Here is a scientific approach concerning the length of racing career - although it refers to tb-breeding in Poland, there should be some valuable information:

http://psjc.icm.edu.pl/psjc/cgi-bin/get ... AAAA019713

There must be a full-text-PDF (12 pages) online for downloading this article as well. At least I have it, please contact me via PM with you email-adress, if you are interested in it.

[louis finochio]

I am finding the same in breeding patterns worldwide it doesn't matter if its western fame in California or Galileo in Europe these matings are not working to produce a consistency of sound individuals.
When we lost the out cross of NP sire lines we were dealt a bad hand of forcing thoroughbred breeders to use the sire line of Ph. And his descendents.
Let's don't blame Ph. There is still a way to produce a sound tb without inbreeding to the max, as it's the best to plan matings with five to eight crosses of pH. As it serves as a balance of eight crosses of pH. And eight crosses of N. P..

When big brown caught my eye last year I knew he was bred from an out cross mating as his confirmation gave him away. Those fashion breds have just the opposite confirmation they are very weedy and their constitution is frail, and they are not tough big strong horses that can take a lot of training and racing as they are bred to close with too many crosses of inbreeding which drains their hybrid vigor and soundness with underpinning of jelly.
What I have just posted I have seen this with my own eyes and I have talked to many senior trainers who agree with me.

[Sylvie Hebert]

it is called "hybrid vigor"...Ever notice how healthy,bigger and smarter are human hybrids too?...It is ABC's in genetics at university.

[xfactor fan]

Are you guys looking at the same pedigree? Big Brown is very inbred.

[diomed]

Are you guys looking at the same pedigree? Big Brown is very inbred.

He wasn't the soundest individual either, that is, if you count his awful feet of course.

[Venusian]

Big Brown is inbred 3X3 Northern Dancer, and 3X4 Damascus. Of the 16 stallions in the 5th remove of his pedigree, 9 trace to Phalaris in the male line.

If he's an outcross, what's an inbred??