Louis's Blog on Inbreeding

[Bill from WA]

Louis

I apologize.

Bill

[Shammy Davis]

WARNING: THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS THREAD, AS IT RELATES TO THE BREEDING OF AN INDIVIDUAL HORSE, ITS ANCESTRY, ITS PHYSICAL HEALTH, ITS ATHLETICISM, AND THE POTENTIAL FOR ITS PROGENY, IS UNSCIENTIFIC AND UNTESTED. ANY REPRESENTATION IN THIS THREAD BY THE ORIGINATOR TO THE CONTRARY IS ANATHEMA TO GOOD JUDGMENT AND COMMON SENSE WHEN BREEDING THOROUGHBRED RACEHORSES.

[louis finochio]

i havebeen tracking this tb that has 15 crosses of Ph. thru his sires out of a possible 16. i talked to his trainer today & he said this tb has a shallow hind end, spindle legs, a narrow weedy frame, & has many mental problems that cause his tb to see things that are not here.

his trainer agreed with me that those 15 crosses of Ph. contributed to his tbs prolific number of problems.

[parlo]

i have been tracking this tb that has 15 out of a possible 16 crosses of Ph. thru his sires. i talked to his trainer today & he said
this tb has a shallow hind end, spindle legs, a narrow weedy frame, & has many mental problems ...

What a trainer is this to "train" such a useless horse? How long is this horse in his training? What does he tell the owner of this horse? Does this trainer cheat this owner?

[louis finochio]

SLEUSE (USA) dkb/br. C, 2005 DP = 11-4-9-0-0 (24) DI = 4.33 CD = 1.08 - 4 Starts, 1 Wins, 0 Places, 1 Shows Career Earnings: $29,097

Owner: Glen Calderon
Breeder: Pollock Farms
State Bred: KY
Winnings: 4 Starts: 1 - 0 - 1, $29,097

FTSAUG 2006 $200k.
Broke down at Aqueduct on Feb. 14, 2009 and was euthanized

SLEUSE br. C. 2005
Grand Slam---Chartreuse, by Danzatore

Sleuse had 13 crosses out of a possible 16 thru his sires. Sleuse was a Fashion-Bred as he was inbred 4 X 5 Nearctic, Nearco branch Ph.---4 X 5Natalma, Polynesian branch Ph.---3 X 4 ND, Nearco branch Ph.---3 X 4 Secretariat, Nearco branch Ph.---4 X 4 RAN, Polynesian branch Ph.---5 X 5 X 5 Native Dancer, Polynesian branch Ph.---4 X 5 X 5 Bold Ruler, Nearco branch Ph.

Sleuse had 1 cross each of those Ph. sire line foundation stallions Turn-to---Mr. P.---Nashua---Buckpasser---Nasrullah.
If Sleuse had a bone density test, i would expect a very low reading on the minus side.

[Shammy Davis]

Louis posted:

. . . his trainer agreed with me that those 15 crosses of Ph. contributed to his tbs prolific number of problems.

Name the horse and your source. True research is replete with factual information that is supported by competent sources. This thread is no better than casual conversation between you and the reflection of yourself in a mirror.

True research is begun because questions are asked. True resesarch is completed when questions become answers. Possibly one day your reflection will suggest to you that it is time to act responsibly. I personally fear that the concept of "being responsible" is not in your league.

Surely, "all your good intentions" aside, responsible members of this board are challenging you and at some point I hope you will realize that they are advising at the very least you post factually, authoritatively, responsibly, and "cautiously." Please listen.

WARNING: THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS THREAD, AS IT RELATES TO THE BREEDING OF AN INDIVIDUAL HORSE, ITS ANCESTRY, ITS PHYSICAL HEALTH, ITS ATHLETICISM, AND THE POTENTIAL FOR ITS PROGENY, IS UNSCIENTIFIC AND UNTESTED. ANY REPRESENTATION IN THIS THREAD BY THE ORIGINATOR TO THE CONTRARY IS ANATHEMA TO GOOD JUDGMENT AND COMMON SENSE WHEN BREEDING THOROUGHBRED RACEHORSES.

[Roguelet]

EVERY person is fully entitled to hold their own opinions and to express their opinions on these forums. Someone's "research" may include reading, studying, observation, talking to/polling industry participants, etc. Posters here are allowed to and encouraged to use whatever form of research they so choose to form their opinions, and are, in turn, allowed to and encouraged to post their opinions. In doing so, they must realize that they are opening their opinions up for scrutiny and commentary by other posters, but they should absolutely not be subjected to sniping or harrasment. Tolerance and respect are key, whether a poster agrees or disagrees with another's thoughts, opinions, or posts.

Several posts on this thread are bordering on, and may have actually crossed the line into, harrassing, sniping, etc. It has not escalated, in all 200 pages, simply because the original poster has chosen to respect board rules and not respond in kind.

However, it appears that this is a good time to post rule #3 below as a reminder of the appropriate manner in which to respond to this thread, as well as others:

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal attacks, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

If the content of this or any other thread bothers a poster to the point that the poster is unable to respond in a civil manner, that poster should refrain from posting in the thread at all.

[parlo]

Well, it's just annoying how @Louis is allowed to repeat continously his thesis with well chosen examples still after 3 years although he is unable to give a profound statistical analysis and although he abuses other generally accepted methods of trustworthy science: he doesn't consider the impact of other possible - environmental - influences, he cites unnamed persons, he takes quotes from literature without specifying the source, he compares aplles with peaches, etc.

And in doing this he fools his fellow-members of this forum and reduces the quality of this forum - but the administrators and moderators permit this senseless behaviour.

[Roguelet]

Well, it's just annoying how @Louis is allowed to repeat continously his thesis with well chosen examples still after 3 years although he is unable to give a profound statistical analysis and although he abuses other generally accepted methods of trustworthy science: he doesn't consider the impact of other possible - environmental - influences, he cites unnamed persons, he takes quotes from literature without specifying the source, he compares aplles with peaches, etc.

And in doing this he fools his fellow-members of this forum and reduces the quality of this forum - but the administrators and moderators permit this senseless behaviour.

Annoying as it may be to some, it does NOT diminish his right to do so. It is not a requirement to post on this forum that someone must not annoy others or that someone must change their beliefs when challenged by others. It is not a requirement that a poster must provide proof, to another poster's approval, in order to hold an opinion. It is not a requirement that ANYTHING be considered when forming a person's own opinion, other than that which the person chooses to consider. It is not a requirement that a poster must reveal his true identity, much less the identity of sources that they may speak to.

If a person chooses to believe what they read on this forum or anywhere else, without further research on the topic, so be it. If a person happens to agree with someone based upon their own experience or research, or based upon nothing at all, that is their right. They are not "fooled," they are making a choice and forming an opinion.

Posting what you believe, politely, on topic, is NOT senseless behavior. It is what this forum is all about. To those who don't agree with the belief... who cares? Don't read... don't post. The original poster is breaking NO rules, is not being disrespectful to others even when he is shown repeated disrespect, and is not flooding the board; he is updating his own thread.

Seriously, he's breaking no rules and hurting no-one. Again, I have to say that if the content of this or any other thread bothers a poster to the point that the poster is unable to respond in a civil manner, that poster should refrain from posting in the thread at all... and to those who fit that description, it might not be a bad idea to just not even read the new posts.

[Bill from WA]

Hello

I would like to apologize to Louis, Roguelet, and any other poster that I may have offended by my comments. As Roguelet stated, Louis has every right to state his opinions. I respectfully disagree with his views, and will no longer participate in this discussion.

Bill

[Whirlaway]

Although I haven't followed his thread as close as some it doesn't take the scientific method to know the breed has changed from stoutness and stamina to speed and precocity.

Keep up the good fight Lou the Shoe

[louis finochio]

I accept your apology Bill, lets shake hands & get on with our research, as our blood runs tb. Louis.

[louis finochio]

URBAN SEA (USA) ch. F, 1989 DP = 8-4-13-3-0 (28) DI = 1.95 CD = 0.61 - 23 Starts, 8 Wins, Places, Shows Career Earnings: $1,704,553

Owner: D.Tsui
Breeder: Marystead Farm
State Bred: KY
Winnings: 23 Starts: 8 - - , $1,704,553

1ST Prix de l'Arc de Tromphe (FR-Gr.1), Prix de la Seine L. (FR), Prix Piaget D'Or L. (FR), Prix Exbury (Fr-Gr.3), Prix du Fonds European de l'Elevage L. (FR), Prix Gontaut-Biron (Fr-Gr.3), Prix d'Harcourt (Fr-Gr.2). 2ND E. P. Taylor Stakes (CAN-Gr.2), Prince of Wales's Stakes (GB-Gr.2), Prix Minerve Gr.3 (FR).

Raced in Eng, Fr, Ger, Japan, and NA. Broodmare of the Year in England and Ireland in 2001.

URBAN SEA Ch. M 1989--2009
Miswaki---Allegretta, by Lombard

We lost a diamond in the rough mare this week. Urban Sea BOY in 2001 & dam of Leading Euro Stallion Galileo.
US was a Non-Fashion Bred as she had 27 crosses NP---5 crosses Ph. thur her sires & dams.
US sire Miswaki by Mr. P. had a balance of speed thru Mr. P. & stamina thru Hopespringseternal.
Allegretta the dam of US had a pedigree of stamina thru those Euro NP stallions Deux-Pour-Cent, Big Game, Donatello, Bahram, Magant, Alchimist.
US was inbred 5 X 5 Nasrullah, Nearco branch---5 X 5 Prince Rose, St. Simon branch---5 X 5 Alchimist, Dark Ronald branch.
RIP MY LOVE.

[louis finochio]

RAJJAAS 2004
Bay colt, 2004-8/29/2006, 2-year-old
Elusive Quality (Gone West) Ridaa by Seattle Slew
Trainer: Kiaran McLaughlin / Owner-breeder: Sheikh Hamdan bin Rashid al Maktoum (Shadwell Stable)
8/29/2006, workout (dirt), Saratoga. Rajjaas was a homebred his connections were considering for the Hopeful Stakes (G1) in September when he broke a leg during a workout and was euthanized. Had won his first start in early August in 5.5f at Saratoga. (thoroughbredtimes.com

RAJJAAS b. C. 2004
Elusive Quality---Ridaa, by Seattle Slew

Rajjaas had 12 crosses Ph. out of a possible 16 thru his sires & was a Fashion Bred.
R was inbred 3 X 5 Mr. P., Polynesian branch Ph.---5 X 5 Bold Ruler, Nearco branch Ph.---5 X 5 HTR, Nearco branch Ph.---4 X 5 ND, Nearco branch Ph.
R had 1 cross each Secretariat, Nearco branch Ph.---RAN, Polynesian branch Ph.---Native Dancer, Polynesian branch Ph.---Nashua, Nearco branch Ph.---1 cross Natalma, Polynesian branch Ph.---Nearctic, Nearco branch Ph.
RIP Rajjaas.

[louis finochio]

IRON ROOSTER (USA) dkb/br. G, 2004 DP = 8-2-16-2-0 (28) DI = 1.80 CD = 0.57 - 5 Starts, 1 Wins, 0 Places, 0 Shows Career Earnings: $12,550

Breeder: James Biller
State Bred: CA
Winnings: 5 Starts: 1 - 0 - 0, $12,550

Foaled April 18, 2004.
Euthanized after fracturing his right hind leg in race at Golden Gate Fields, November 1, 2008.

IRON ROOSTER br. G. 2004
General Meeting---Marva, by Kris S

IR was a Fashion Bred with 10 crosses of PH. thru his sires.
IR was inbred 5 X 5 Native Dancer, Polynesian branch Ph.---4 X 4 RAN, Polynesian branch Ph.---5 X 5 Nashua, Nearco branch Ph.---5 X 5 Bold Ruler, Nearco branch Ph.---4 X 5 Hail to Reason, Nearco branch Ph.
IR had 1 cross each of Turn-to---ND.
All of these Fashion Breds have the same inbreeding patterns, to those foundation stallions. When the Ph. domination is broken up thru inbreeding & those NP stallions are added as an outcross soundness returns to those matings.