Louis's Blog on Inbreeding

[louis finochio]

Why do tb with no duplication of Inbreeding average more lifetime starts than those Fashion Breds. Why do those Non-Fashion breds with an equal & balance of Np--& Ph. sire lines average more lifetime starts?

When a breeder brings in an outcross, it gives new life to racing performance, conformation, iron constution, soundness, hybrid vigor.

I have researched those tb that are at those rescue farms, & they started 35 or more times. All of thise tbs were Non-Fashion Breds.

From 1930--1980 I have researched all the progeny of those mares, their progeny started between 35---85 lifetime starts. The average crosses of Ph. in their pedigree was 4, today we are seeing 9--13 crosses of Ph.

[diomed]

Louis, that is ONE thing you see. Not the only thing that is happening, and certainly not the only pedigree pattern.
Have you even LOOKED at a common denominator with the female lines, or is that too much work for you?
Sire lines are very easy to follow since there is only a few remaining.
Don't take the easy way out....
Look at ALL possibilities.
Explain to me how come the breed didn't dissolve with all of the earlier inbreeding that took place? Follow the development of the breed and you will see many of the same sire line patterns that you are seeing now.
In fact, in the sounder times(ironically before numerous drugs, like steroids were around) horses were more inbred than today...Much more so...
If I were narrow minded and had tunnel vision I could focus on that and say that the reason horses are not as sound is because the are not as inbred as they used to be....
See what I mean?

[louis finochio]

I have included all the mares in my research project, as from the mare proceeds the worth. To only research the stallions is only one-half of the whole.

The breed didnt dissolve in the past when Inbreeding was practiced because those breeders Inbred to a variety of sire lines. The majority of those sire lnes were not related.

Those old NP sire lines brought in soundness, as there was no Fashion Breds of 1 sire line with 25--30 crosses in a 5 generation pedigree.

Look at the pedigrees of those TC winners, their pedigrees our the Holy Grail of how to breed a sound tb.

[diomed]

I have included all the mares in my research project, as from the mare proceeds the worth. To only research the stallions is only one-half of the whole.

The breed didnt dissolve in the past when Inbreeding was practiced because those breeders Inbred to a variety of sire lines. The majority of those sire lnes were not related.

Those old NP sire lines brought in soundness, as there was no Fashion Breds of 1 sire line with 25--30 crosses in a 5 generation pedigree.

Look at the pedigrees of those TC winners, their pedigrees our the Holy Grail of how to breed a sound tb.

???
Variety of sirelines????
Have you followed how much the Bend Or line was inbred too? Stockwell? Eclipse? So on an so forth...
In the beginning there were multiple sires and sire lines, and then there were only 3 and now there is basically one.

When there were only 3 was a long, long, time ago too...And this is natural since the human species did the same thing...
Eventually, WAY DOWN THE ROAD....All TBs will even descend from the same mare line as well...
Since basically, with evolution, they all descend from the same animal on both lines anyways.

The breed is following it's natural path.
Phalaris took his natural place, just like Bend Or did before him and before that, Eclipse...

Breeders need to eliminate unnatural growth enhancing drugs, inbreed more so the out crosses are better, and cull strictly like they used to do before they could surgically mask defects that are allowed in the gene pool.

Oh, and speaking of cullling, you know that your beloved Herod line is the source of bleeding in the breed..
It used to be controlled before Lasix was used...In fact, the lines that carried it where almost bred out, but now it's back in thanks to a masking medicine....

There are SO many things that hurt the breed and it certainly is not PHALARIS....I bet my life on it, because it has happened before(an overdominance of a male line).

[laura22]

You need the right blend of slow/fast twitch fibres

[louis finochio]

ZENSATIONAL (USA) gr/r. C, 2006 DP = 7-8-7-0-2 (24) DI = 3.36 CD = 0.75 - 6 Starts, 4 Wins, 1 Places, 0 Shows Career Earnings: $429,300

Owner: Zayat Stables LLC
Breeder: Claiborne Farm
State Bred: KY
Winnings: 6 Starts: 4 - 1 - 0, $429,300

At 3: Won Triple Bend H.(G1), Bing Crosby S.(G1).

Foaled April 26, 2006
FTFFEB 2008 $700K

ZENSATIONAL gr. C, 2006
Unbridleds Song---Joke, by Phone Trick

Z is a Non-Fashion Bred with 21 crosses NP---11 crosses Ph. thru his sires & dams.
Z is inbred 4 X 4 Mr. P. Polynesian branch Ph.---5 X 5 RAN, Polynesian branch Ph.

Those NP stallions that appear in Z 5 generation pedigree are: Full Pocket by Olden Times=Fair Play---Le Fabuleux, Wild Risk, Tom Rolfe=Rabelais---In Reality, Mr. Busher=Fair Play---Better Bee=Sundridge---Prince Blessed=Prince Rose---Dr. Fager=Questionnaire---Lucky Mel by Olympia=Gainsborough.

I like this mating for soundness, as those NP stallions & mares bring in an outcross to this mating. I have seen Z many times, & he has big strong bone a frame that remind me of our tb of the past. Congrats to Z breeder Claiborne Farm in breeding for soundness not Fashion.

[Curlin]

Louis,

After reading your post on Damascus I went to look at Gayego's pedigree.
He has one of the most intriguing pedigrees I've seen in a recently-bred horse. Both sire and dam are non-ph and there's a ton of non-ph on both side. Breeders will, I hope, flock to him, as he and Early Flyer (now that Gilded Time's in Canada) are the last hope for keeping the Teddy line alive.

Look for Gayego to appear next in the Forego at Saratoga. They do this horse a disservice looking for sprints when he can go longer, but they may be aiming him for the BC Mile.

I might add, if anyone can find Early Flyer's photo, that he must be one of the handsomest individuals I've ever seen.

[louis finochio]

CAUCASIENNE (FR) F, 2003 DP = 9-1-12-4-0 (26) DI = 1.60 CD = 0.58

Owner: Gestut Graditz
Breeder: Dayton Investments

CAUCASIENNE (FR) F, 2003
Galileo---Carousel Girl, by Gulch

C was a Fashion Bred that was unraced, with 21 crosses of Ph. sire line stallions in her 5 generation pedigree.
C was Inbred 3 X 5 ND, Nearco branch Ph.---4 X 5 Gold Digger mare by Nashua, Nearco branch Ph.---3 X 4 Mr. P. Polynesian branch Ph.---4 X 5 RAN, Polynesian branch Ph.---5 X 5 X 5 Native Dancer, Polynesian branch Ph.

The Ph. sire line mares that appear in C 5 generation pedigree are: Urban Sea, Carousel Girl, Carnet Solarie, Fairy Bridge, Royal Statute, Natalma, Thong, Danae, Gold Digger 2 crosses.

This Fashion Bred mating is an example of Inbreeding to both mares & stallions in clusters to those Ph. sire line individuals. This mating was void of Inbreeding to those NP sire line stallions to over ride the Inbreeding to Ph.

[louis finochio]

Thanks for posting Gayego, he is an welcome outcross stallion to the Inbred Ph. gene pool.

GAYEGO br. C, 2005
Gilded Time---Devils Lake, by Lost Code

G is Teddy over Rabelais, thru the Damascus branch of Teddy---Lost Code Ribot branch of Rabelais.

G is Inbred 5 X 5 Ribot=Rabelais----5 X 5 Count Fleet branch Sundridge, this overides his Inbreeding to Bold Ruler.

[laura22]

Louis, i'm new here but have no time to read every post. How do you deal with those who try to outwit you?

I do remember one quote, 'speculation disguised as fact'

I will always check this thread daily, it's fascinating

[parlo]

... I will always check this thread daily, it's fascinating

Sorry, for long - perhaps from start - this thread is boring and has only some jokish / entertaining relevance - just a kind of American comedy.

Louis is far from doing scientific research. He operates with terms, he does not "well define", and puts them into thesis, he is unable to prove trustworthy and convincingly - and he does so for some 3 years meanwhile. Even worse, he repeats the same sentences without recognizable progress in knowledge - although he pretents to learn every day. How? He shows us daily, that he hasn't learnt anything in recent years. This thread insults this message-board and many people who research in tbs according generally accepted and compelling rules of scientific work.

So to start doing good research:
- we need a definition, what a "Lous-fashion-bred" is, that anybody can comply to.

- we need a provable thesis: Such well-defined "Louis-fashion-bred" have lower bone-density / break down more often and earlier / therefore show tendentially a lower cypher of life-time-starts. "average-life-time-start" is not a good measure as it's standard-deviation is to big in relation to the mean-value.

- we need a representative sample of horses to prove those thesis, f.e. all 2-3yo tbs running (not only down-breaking!) at Hollywood Park, Santa Anita Park, Churchill Downs, Belmont Park from say 2006 to June 2009 (the time of this thread), perhaps one year (2008) may suffice.

- we need to use accepted methods of research.

- we may not be prejudized and only consider what supports our personal point of vie and intention. Selective perception is most common among "tb-experts", whatever a "tb-expert" and ecen more a "pedigree-expert" is.

- is this sample representative of the total tb-population running in the US / even world-wide? how many of the horses in that sample are fashion- / non-fashion-bred? is there a (significant?!) difference between these 2 groups concerning the criteria of the aforementioned thesis?

- can any other possible / near-at-hand influence apart from "intense inbreeding to sire-lines" be (definitely?) excluded from the horses of this sample?

We see: Even after 3 years Louis is far away from doing solid research - he hasn't even started to answer just one of his thesis comprehensively and convincingly.

[hpkingjr]

Granted, logic has not reared it's ugly head in most of the posts but this thread reminds me of the games we played as a child where the rules changed daily and everyone still played. It speaks well for most of the posters that this thread is still mostly civil and entertaining.

[louis finochio]

Laura 22: I love my work of pedigree research, as its a labor of love. I have confidence in myself, as I have seen those NP sire lines of the past slowly disapear over the years that caused our soundness to take a hit.

For those posters that try to out wit me, I can tell how much knowledge they have by reading their posts. The people that have read my posts have inspired me to push on & dig depper into my research of what the power of an outcross bring to the table of soundness.
Be Well do good work, & keep in touch,Louis.

[Strategic Maneuver]

Louis,

After reading your post on Damascus I went to look at Gayego's pedigree.
He has one of the most intriguing pedigrees I've seen in a recently-bred horse. Both sire and dam are non-ph and there's a ton of non-ph on both side. Breeders will, I hope, flock to him, as he and Early Flyer (now that Gilded Time's in Canada) are the last hope for keeping the Teddy line alive.

Look for Gayego to appear next in the Forego at Saratoga. They do this horse a disservice looking for sprints when he can go longer, but they may be aiming him for the BC Mile.

I might add, if anyone can find Early Flyer's photo, that he must be one of the handsomest individuals I've ever seen.

EF is very good looking and balanced and stamps his foals. I have a 2yr. old colt that is probably the best moving horse I have ever bred. I would highly recommend EF to anyone looking for Gilded Time line.

[louis finochio]

Even from good bloodstock you will only now and again breed your champion racer. But from untried bloodstock without work, you seldom or never will. A good many novices waste their money on buying mediocre bloodstock.
It costs no more to feed good ones in cheap ones that have no pedigree.

I give this advice to all new starters. However, having acquired progeny from tried stock, don't expect to be able to race into the group races with ease with which the master breeder will achieve his greatest performances.

Even if you copy and imitate the master breeder in every singular particular way, you will still not find it easy to prepare and race winners.
What every novice must bear in mind is that no master breeder is going to tell you everything he knows. For instance, the ability to cull and select is probably the most important skill ever to be developed and master by the master breeder.

He will know what bloodstock to keep and raise, and what to weed out, he will know just how much work his tbs need to undertake and to bring them to the threshold of fitness for those long distant races.

These and a number of other skills can only be learned through study and practice or a number of years of dedicated service to the thoroughbreds. As you learn, consolidate. Don't keep changing or making drastic alterations. Instead , just become more precise and dedicated, and willing to keep trying in your attempts to overcome adversity.