Give me some Selene!
Inbred pedigree of the week:
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster, Lucy
http://www.pedigreequery.com/pall+mall
Here's one for the Gipper, I've noticed him on the bottom side of a few stallion pedigree's lately, must be the Sansovino he brings.
Here's one for the Gipper, I've noticed him on the bottom side of a few stallion pedigree's lately, must be the Sansovino he brings.
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Barcaldine
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I hope not. Sansovino was a major flop at stud, in spite of his aristocratic pedigree. The triple infusion of THE TETRARCH's brilliance is no doubt the source of PALL MALL's positive contributions.
On another note, my personal choice for best racehorse of all time, CITATION, is generally cited as a failure as a sire. After studying many of the pedigrees of his progeny I've concluded that his failure to reproduce himself was largely Calumet's own fault.
Like Seth Hancock, who at first classified SECRETARIAT as a fast 'BOLD RULER' rather than a stout *PRINCEQUILLO type, Calumet looked at CITATION as another fast BULL LEA, rather than a staying HYPERION.
Calumet owned few fast, or fast-bred, mares other than those by Bull Lea. So it bred a lot of BLENHEIM, CHANCE PLAY and other stamina line mares to Citation. Result---garbage.
But when it bred to him a fast-bred mare (3 x 3 THE TETRARCH), who was of far less quality than the rest of their broodmare band, they were rewarded with Preakness winner FABIUS. When C.V. Whitney bred a fast MAHMOUD mare to Citation the outcome was champion filly SILVER SPOON. And when several other outside mares (the dam of BOLERO, for instance) were served by CItation they too produced major stakes winners.
Seth Hancock figured out his mistake with Secretariat early enough to salvage the horse's stud career. VERY FAST mares produced TERLINGUA and GENERAL ASSEMBLY, two of his best.
Nowadays most stallion managers pay no heed to actually "managing" their stallion's book other than to book as many mares as possible. Ashford, of course, is the industry leader in non-management. Only when a realistic understanding of the stallion's assets and liabilities are utilized can a stallion manager breed the most complimentary mares to him.
On another note, my personal choice for best racehorse of all time, CITATION, is generally cited as a failure as a sire. After studying many of the pedigrees of his progeny I've concluded that his failure to reproduce himself was largely Calumet's own fault.
Like Seth Hancock, who at first classified SECRETARIAT as a fast 'BOLD RULER' rather than a stout *PRINCEQUILLO type, Calumet looked at CITATION as another fast BULL LEA, rather than a staying HYPERION.
Calumet owned few fast, or fast-bred, mares other than those by Bull Lea. So it bred a lot of BLENHEIM, CHANCE PLAY and other stamina line mares to Citation. Result---garbage.
But when it bred to him a fast-bred mare (3 x 3 THE TETRARCH), who was of far less quality than the rest of their broodmare band, they were rewarded with Preakness winner FABIUS. When C.V. Whitney bred a fast MAHMOUD mare to Citation the outcome was champion filly SILVER SPOON. And when several other outside mares (the dam of BOLERO, for instance) were served by CItation they too produced major stakes winners.
Seth Hancock figured out his mistake with Secretariat early enough to salvage the horse's stud career. VERY FAST mares produced TERLINGUA and GENERAL ASSEMBLY, two of his best.
Nowadays most stallion managers pay no heed to actually "managing" their stallion's book other than to book as many mares as possible. Ashford, of course, is the industry leader in non-management. Only when a realistic understanding of the stallion's assets and liabilities are utilized can a stallion manager breed the most complimentary mares to him.
How would you judge Spectacular Bid's so-so progeny
(horses and mares) vis-a-vis the relative success now he
has achieved when positioned 2, 3 or 4 generations back?
I ask this question keeping in mind how difficult the stallion career
of Bold Bidder evolved (in spite of siring Cannonade) and that of
Promised Land. Yes, both stallions managed to produce various good
ones but, whew!, quite arduous.
Perhaps that failure to persist with Spectcular Bid is what ultimately affected his breeding legacy to a certain extent. Note that time has resurrected the presence of Spectacular Bid but only through those initial Northern Dancer crossess. Seems like his latter New England crossess had no lasting effects on his 21st. century legacy.
Would you compare what happened to him to what "just-in-time" happened to Secretariat?
Would really like to read your analysis.
(horses and mares) vis-a-vis the relative success now he
has achieved when positioned 2, 3 or 4 generations back?
I ask this question keeping in mind how difficult the stallion career
of Bold Bidder evolved (in spite of siring Cannonade) and that of
Promised Land. Yes, both stallions managed to produce various good
ones but, whew!, quite arduous.
Perhaps that failure to persist with Spectcular Bid is what ultimately affected his breeding legacy to a certain extent. Note that time has resurrected the presence of Spectacular Bid but only through those initial Northern Dancer crossess. Seems like his latter New England crossess had no lasting effects on his 21st. century legacy.
Would you compare what happened to him to what "just-in-time" happened to Secretariat?
Would really like to read your analysis.
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Barcaldine
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Hi Jorge,
As you know Spectacular Bid was inbred 3 x 3 TO MARKET, a good racehorse and sire but hardly a household name. This fact may have contributed to Bid's racetrack success but perhaps did not enhance his siring ability.
You're correct, his sire BOLD BIDDER was not successful as a sire-of-sires, but with a horse of Spectacular Bid's enormous talent one would think that it almost shouldn't matter. He just didn't fire as a stallion, irrespective of the type of mares he bred. What is interesting, though, is that his best progeny were usually turf performers. I would attribute that to the influence of his damsire, the grass performer/sire PROMISED LAND.
Like SECRETARIAT and many other greats, Bid was bred to Kentucky's finest broodmares. That their daughters are well represented in the pedigrees of today's better runners should come as no surprise. The strength of the female lines is so strong that they often transcend poor sires.
As you know Spectacular Bid was inbred 3 x 3 TO MARKET, a good racehorse and sire but hardly a household name. This fact may have contributed to Bid's racetrack success but perhaps did not enhance his siring ability.
You're correct, his sire BOLD BIDDER was not successful as a sire-of-sires, but with a horse of Spectacular Bid's enormous talent one would think that it almost shouldn't matter. He just didn't fire as a stallion, irrespective of the type of mares he bred. What is interesting, though, is that his best progeny were usually turf performers. I would attribute that to the influence of his damsire, the grass performer/sire PROMISED LAND.
Like SECRETARIAT and many other greats, Bid was bred to Kentucky's finest broodmares. That their daughters are well represented in the pedigrees of today's better runners should come as no surprise. The strength of the female lines is so strong that they often transcend poor sires.
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Pan Zareta
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The dams of General Assembly and Terlingua, Exclusive Dancer and Crimson Saint, respectively, were both among the elite groups of mares accepted for breeding to Secretariat his first and second years at stud. In both cases the results were far more impressive the second year. As previously noted, those results probably did effect a refinement of the type of mare preferred for his later books. On paper, Crimson Saint arguably had the edge in speed influence. Her broodmare sire Bolero preferred a mile or less and brought to the pedigree Wise Counsellor who has become a more frequent fixture of QH than TB pedigree, most notably via QH HOFer Go Man Go. Incidentally, when bred to Citation, Bolero's dam Stepwisely produced the speed-loving Watch Your Step.
Wise Counsellor 1921 was heavily line-bred to *Leamington and Lexington, with several additional crosses of Lexington's sire Boston.
Wise Counsellor 1921 was heavily line-bred to *Leamington and Lexington, with several additional crosses of Lexington's sire Boston.
Wise Counsellor can also be found on the 3rd dam of noted speed influence Clever Trick.
Anne Peters told me that the reason Secretariat didn't sire more superior horses was because of basically what Pan Zareta just posted. Many people didn't breed the speedy sprinting type of mares to him, which was just what he needed because he really threw to Princequillo and tended to throw a lot of plodders because of it.
Anne Peters told me that the reason Secretariat didn't sire more superior horses was because of basically what Pan Zareta just posted. Many people didn't breed the speedy sprinting type of mares to him, which was just what he needed because he really threw to Princequillo and tended to throw a lot of plodders because of it.
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Barcaldine
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OLE BOB BOWERS, sire of JOHN HENRY:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/ole+bob+bowers
ONCE DOUBLE, dam of JOHN HENRY:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/once+double
http://www.pedigreequery.com/ole+bob+bowers
ONCE DOUBLE, dam of JOHN HENRY:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/once+double
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Pan Zareta
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The aforementioned To Market is the only duplication (5s x 4D) in the 5 gen. pedigree of Heartswideopen (QH 2005 br f x Feature Mr. Jess - Dashing Phoebe x Dash For Cash, family 4-m) 13-11-1-0 $1,885,283, MG1SW, AQHA Champion racing 2yo of 2007, Champion racing 3yo of 2008.
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Barcaldine
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According to Dr. Steve Roman ('Dr. Dosage') (and another snake oil salesman), a 5 x 5 duplication is the average inbreeding, at least in America, of all TB's. If he is correct, anything under that represents more inbreeding than the norm. Or, as the mathematicians like to call it, a higher coefficient of inbreeding.
Hello,
recently I had a closer look at the Sire "Le Volcan" and saw his pedigree is build up by closely inbred horses, Sires and dams.
Le Volcan is 2 x 3 Durban, Tourbillon/Banstar), Ksar is 2 x 3 Omnium, Wellingtonia (2 x 3 Pocanhontas, 3 x 3 Touchstone)
Eroica (his dam), the Granddam Sire is Chulo tracing to Blood Red (2 x 3 Ellen Horne), Illusion (4th dam is by Wellingtonia), Adulation (3 x 3 Ardrossan Mare)
He is the Sire of Polaire, ancestress of Relko/Rocky Mountain by Tanerko (was sent to Aus/NZ) and Reliance/Desirade (Tantieme), dam of Ruling (by Bold Ruler)
Accordng the Database hthe abovementioned Sire was sent to Columbia.
Btw, in this thread "Spectacular Bid " was mentioned. Well, it's very hidden, but a name appearing in Le Volcan is to find in his ped. Spectacular Bids third dam is by a Sire named Head Play and he traces to "Blood Red", the same mare as in Chulo.
Regards, Bettina
P.S.: in my homecountries breeding there are of course several inbred Horses to find, more later.
recently I had a closer look at the Sire "Le Volcan" and saw his pedigree is build up by closely inbred horses, Sires and dams.
Le Volcan is 2 x 3 Durban, Tourbillon/Banstar), Ksar is 2 x 3 Omnium, Wellingtonia (2 x 3 Pocanhontas, 3 x 3 Touchstone)
Eroica (his dam), the Granddam Sire is Chulo tracing to Blood Red (2 x 3 Ellen Horne), Illusion (4th dam is by Wellingtonia), Adulation (3 x 3 Ardrossan Mare)
He is the Sire of Polaire, ancestress of Relko/Rocky Mountain by Tanerko (was sent to Aus/NZ) and Reliance/Desirade (Tantieme), dam of Ruling (by Bold Ruler)
Accordng the Database hthe abovementioned Sire was sent to Columbia.
Btw, in this thread "Spectacular Bid " was mentioned. Well, it's very hidden, but a name appearing in Le Volcan is to find in his ped. Spectacular Bids third dam is by a Sire named Head Play and he traces to "Blood Red", the same mare as in Chulo.
Regards, Bettina
P.S.: in my homecountries breeding there are of course several inbred Horses to find, more later.
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Barcaldine
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vineyridge
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http://www.pedigreequery.com/reatas+shadow
Wasn't much of a race horse, is still a stallion, and very recently showed up on the Myrtle Beach, SC Craigslist.
Wasn't much of a race horse, is still a stallion, and very recently showed up on the Myrtle Beach, SC Craigslist.
Thread Killer Extraordinaire
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Barcaldine
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