Louis's Blog on Inbreeding

[xfactor fan]

Here's the other problem with Louis's work. He's basing everything wrong with the US TB on sire lines. And has pinpointed a horse that is increasingly far back on pedigrees, 6-12 generations at this point. While ignoring any contributions from the dam lines.

The simple math of duplicating ancestors the farther back in generations one goes seems to be lost on him.

As for Ellen Parker, her pedlines always read like a gossip column. Where's she full of inside information that no one else knows.

Nack is a wonderful sports writer, and his book on Secretariat is in my opinion the best one ever published. However he doesn't have a science background, and is not a science writer. There are a few great science writers out there, but they are few and far between.

[Bast]

The quote from the Aga Khan is very general and often breeders take unconventional routes to success.

While on the way to looking up something else, I wandered into the breeding of Fred Hooper, and found an individual with ELEVEN crosses to the 1946 stallion Olympia!

http://www.pedigreequery.com/speedy+diplomat2

The horse won 5 races in 21 starts, so he could not have been seriously malformed. He was also inbred to Crozier and Tri Jet.

So what does this prove? Not much, except that anecdotally, there may be room for more inbreeding that we are used to seeing in TBs, without disaster.

BTW, I found at least 16 crosses to Phalaris as well.

[louis finochio]

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:16 pm Post subject:

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Here's the other problem with Louis's work. He's basing everything wrong with the US TB on sire lines. And has pinpointed a horse that is increasingly far back on pedigrees, 6-12 generations at this point. While ignoring any contributions from the dam lines.

The simple math of duplicating ancestors the farther back in generations one goes seems to be lost on him.

These NP sire line stallions appear far back when they trace to our current tb. They are: Ben Brush, Chaucer, Dark Ronald, domino, Fair Play, Hyperion, Hurry On, Massine, Orby, Peter Pan, Prince Rose, Questionnaire, Rabelais, Rock Sand, Speculum, Swynford, Teddy, The Tetrarch, tourbillon,Ticino, Wise Counsellor.

Some of these NP sire lines have not reproduced their selves thru their male line. Some are still alive & well in tail-female.

[ElPrado]

Louis, are you a hard boot now, too?

[Bast]

Some of these NP sire lines have not reproduced their selves thru their male line. Some are still alive & well in tail-female.

Almost any stallion whose progeny were successful are still very much alive in contemporary pedigrees. Lexington is still very much with us, for example--every cross of Nearco brings also a cross of Lezington. It's way back in Nearco lineage, but it's there.

Only the profound failures, the nearly sterile, and the ones who died with a handful of foals tend towards extinction.

[louis finochio]

I was refering to the male NP sire lines, that i posted. They have taken a big hit, as the male & female sire line of Ph. rules the roost, thru their Ph. over Ph. matings.

[Bast]

I was refering to the male NP sire lines, that i posted. They have taken a big hit, as the male & female sire line of Ph. rules the roost, thru their Ph. over Ph. matings.

Down on the level where genetics is expressed molecularly, how does that matter?

[dublino]

Down on the level where genetics is expressed molecularly, how does that matter?

Until man finds out where he came from and about his own genetics and how they impact life for humans, don't try and tell anyone you understand what goes on geneticially or molecularly with a horse - your just making yourself look stoopid.

[louis finochio]

Breeders that practice Line-Breeding, that indulge in close breeding, grand-mother grand-son, one-half brother, one-half sister, 1st. cousins, will soon experience a decline in racing performance & small frame conformation, brought on by close Line-Breeding.

When that happens, it's time to introduce an outcross to restore the hybrid vigor & racing performance. The progeny from those Line-Breeding are telling us, it's time to outcross.

In the present where the breed is 95% from one sire line, those breeders that see the degeneration of soundness, small conformation & the high % of unraced FB, will seek an outcross. Those breeders will continue to breed sound tb, while those breeders of FB will continue to struggle.

[louis finochio]

So. Calif. trainers continued.

Rafael Bacerra, was the foreman for Gary Jones, trains 35 tb. Good responsible trainer, good help, but dosent have those quality tbs, to compete with Stakes tb.

Tom Bell, his grandfather was a bloodstock agent that arranged for the Importation of Nasrullah, Sir Gallahad III. TB is a good trainer with the patience of Job. trains 12 tbs.

Julio Canani, a quality trainer, that trains quality tb, Julio trains 35 tbs.

to continue.

[ElPrado]

Are any of these trainers inbred? Inquiring minds want to know. How many of their horses are? Are they running horses with all NP breeding? Do they ask your advice when they pick a horse to claim? Do they take you to Del Mar to sign the claim slips for them?

[Bast]

Down on the level where genetics is expressed molecularly, how does that matter?

Until man finds out where he came from and about his own genetics and how they impact life for humans, don't try and tell anyone you understand what goes on geneticially or molecularly with a horse - your just making yourself look stoopid.

This science is several decades old. It continues to be refined (epigenetics), but the basics have not changed much.

Except for mitochondria, a sequence of nucleotides can originate from any ancestors who passed it along--whether from St Simon or La Troienne, Fair Play or Busanda.

[louis finochio]

The trainers that know pedigrees, will ask me my opinions on whether their tb can go a distance of ground. Most all of those trainers are seniors or seniors to be.

My friend Jake, Ouen Harty's foreman will let me know if he has any FB in his shedrow.
I dont check those trainers tb for FB or NFB, unless they ask me. Paco Gonzalez wants to know if his tb are FB or NFB. Paco is from my generation, he is not a fan of FB.

No the trainers dont ask my advice on which tb to claim. They will ask me about their background for soundness. If i were a trainer i wouldnt train those FB like those NFB, as those FB are not as sound, & require a different training schedule.

[xfactor fan]

For everyones else but Louis:


There is a huge difference between inbreeding to close individuals, and inbreeding to a sire line.

In this sense of the word, inbreeding is the doubling up of identical chromosomes. When an individual gets two identical chromosomes all the genes line up, doubling up everything that is good, and everything that is bad.

For a quick example: Any cremello, or perlino TB that comes from Milkie has two copies of the same cream gene and (mostly) the same chromosome that that gene lives on.

A cremello or perlino that carries Milkie and Glitter Please in his pedigree has two different copies of the cream gene, and has one chromosome that carries the cream gene from Milkie, and one cream carrying chromosome from Glitter Please.

The sex determining chromosomes the Y and the X match up differently.

Colts are YX, Fillies XX. So it is possible to inbreed to the same X, but impossible to inbreed to the Y. (Only one Y, so no duplication of genes on that small chromosome)

A horse has 64 chromosomes 2 sex chromosomes and 62 regular chromosomes. A parent horse passes 1 sex chromosome, and 31 regular chromosomes to each offspring. However, they don't pass the same set of chromosomes (with the exception of stallions passing on the Y to their sons) to each offspring.

A sire line is a group of horses that carry the same Y chromosome from a distant ancestor.

On the average any colt gets half his regular chromosomes and a Y from his sire.

So just tracing the sireline:

Colt Y + 31
Sire Y + 15
Grand sire Y + 7
Great Grandsire Y + 3
Great Great Grandsire Y + 1
Great Great Grandsire Y

And so on and so forth.

So the only thing that you can say for sure is that a stallion more than 7 generations back on the topside of the pedigree shares is his Y chromosome.

Inbreeding and inbreeding to a sireline are two different things, apples and oranges.

[louis finochio]

Lisa: This is those S. Korea stallions u posted.

Peace Rules NFB, Exploit NFB, Menifee NFB, Forest Camp NFB, Pico Central NFB, Commendable NFB.

Vicar FB, One Cool Cat FB, Volponi FB but he has 16 crosses of NP Stallions&prolific crosses of NP sire line mares, which accounts for his 30 starts. Hawk Wing has no pedigree available.

Those FB stallions should not be bred to those mares with the same Inbreeding they are Inbred to. With Love & Peace Louis.