Louis's Blog on Inbreeding

[Bast]

Louis,

Please comment on the following Mystery Horse:

If I understand your theory, this is a Fashion Bred.

He has an embarrassment of Phalaris riches--Native Dancer 5 X 5 X 6, Raise a Native 4 X 5, Buckpasser 5 X 5, has 4 descendants of Nasrullah in the 5th generation, and has a line to Turn-to through Sir Gaylord! Nearco himself appears in the 5th generation!

His actual male line is through Shenanigans' son Icecapade.

13 of 32 5th generation ancestors descend in male line from Phalaris
23 total crosses to Phalaris

The 14 ancestors in the first 3 generations had the following number of starts, for a total of 323 starts:

16 + 28 + 32 + 23 + 36 + 21 + 13 + 26 + 45 + 13 + 23 + 18 + 16 + 13

Only 3 of them made it past 30 starts.

Phalaris
……Pharos
…………Nearco*
………………Nearctic
……………………Icecapade
???
………………Dante*
………………Royal Charger
……………………Turn-to
…………………………Sir Gaylord* (2x to Phalaris)
………………Nasrullah
……………………Nashua
…………………………Gold Digger*
……………………Bold Ruler
…………………………Bold Commander* (2x to Phalaris)
……………………Rullah Good*
……………………Fleet Nasrullah
…………………………Strictly Speaking*
……Sickle
…………Unbreakable
………………Polynesian
……………………Native Dancer* 5 X 5
…………………………Raise a Native* 4 X 5
……Pharamond
…………Menow
………………Tom Fool
……………………Buckpasser* 5 X 5
……………………Cap and Bells*

Lady Angela (Bay Ronald)
Bold Irish (Teddy)
Hyperion (Bay Ronald)
Éclair (The Tetrarch)
Clovelly (Swynford)
Graustark (St Simon) (1x to Phalaris)
Key Bridge (St Simon)
Missy Baba (Tourbillon) (1x to Phalaris)
Etonian (Bay Ronald) (2x to Phalaris)
We Try Harder (St Simon) (1x to Phalaris)
Rose Bower (St Simon) (1x to Phalaris)
The Axe (Swynford)
Abyssinia (Bay Ronald) (2x to Phalaris)
Crafty Alice (Teddy)
Raise You (Teddy)
Olden Times (Fair Play)
Gallant Romeo (Bois Roussel)
Beau Busher (Fair Play)
Night Letter (Bay Ronald)

[louis finochio]

If i had this tb name, I would breakdown the sire lines of his mares & stallions. 23 crosses of Ph. is not breaking the sound barrier. Those FB that have 29 crosses of Ph sire line stallions & 18 crosses of Ph. sire line mares are red alert FB, that carry a high risk for unsoundness.

[louis finochio]

Bast: The tb u posted is a NFB.

[Bast]

If i had this tb name, I would breakdown the sire lines of his mares & stallions. 23 crosses of Ph. is not breaking the sound barrier. Those FB that have 29 crosses of Ph sire line stallions & 18 crosses of Ph. sire line mares are red alert FB, that carry a high risk for unsoundness.

I could tell you, but this is a test. In science, one forms an hypothesis and then tests it out in reality. (That's the way I do science.)

[Bast]

Bast: The tb u posted is a NFB.

Please clarify whether you are referring to the hypothetical pedigree back a page or this real horse.

[louis finochio]

I am not a scientist, I am a pedigree researcher, & a student of conformation. Those FB have created our tb to under go profilic changes in their conformation, which has been seen by my eyes since the FB arrived on the earth in the early 80s.

Those NFB have the same conformation they Inherited decades ago. Those breeders of NFB, like The Aga Khan, have refused to join the Fashion parade. Congrats to all those breeders of NFB, they create soundness thru their NFB matings.

[ElPrado]

In other words, he has no clue.

[Bast]

I am not a scientist, I am a pedigree researcher, & a student of conformation. Those FB have created our tb to under go profilic changes in their conformation, which has been seen by my eyes since the FB arrived on the earth in the early 80s.

Those NFB have the same conformation they Inherited decades ago. Those breeders of NFB, like The Aga Khan, have refused to join the Fashion parade. Congrats to all those breeders of NFB, they create soundness thru their NFB matings.

You don't have to be a science professional.

Most comets are discovered by amateurs.

I went to the trouble of posting some very detailed material, and your replies are ambiguous. Please be specific.

[BenB]

Our son is autistic, Louis is just acting like our boy.

He cannot think in the wide spectrum and sticking to one part from the pie instead to looking at the whole pie.

[louis finochio]

I need to look at the 5 generation pedigree to give my opinion of your MH. I see things when i look at the 5 gen. ped. I cant access the info u posted.

[louis finochio]

GREAT EMPEROR (USA) b. G, 2004 DP = 1-3-6-0-0 (10) DI = 2.33 CD = 0.50 - 37 Starts, 5 Wins, 8 Places, 6 Shows Career Earnings: $209,844

Owner: Jacobson Racing Stable, Michael Ricatto($35Kclm 8/9/08)
Breeder: Gainsborough Farm LLC
State Bred: KY
Winnings: 37 Starts: 5 - 8 - 6, $209,844

Foaled March 27, 2004
Sadly suffered a Slab Fracture to his Right Knee and Had to be Euthanized in Race 4 at Aqueduct on 12-11-10

GREAT EMPEROR b. G, 2004
Marias Mon---Ras Shaikh, by Sheikh Albadou

GE was a NFB being Inbred 5 X 5 ND
GE had 18 crosses NP---14 crosses Ph. thru his sires & dams, in his 5 generation pedigree.
GE started 37 times before being Injured, his soundness was Inherited thru his 18 crosses of NP & 14 crosses of Ph, a most desired balance of sire lines.
GE Inbreeding is not Fashionable, as 5 X 5 ND is acceptable when trying to breed for soundness.
Congrats to GE breeder Gainsborough Farm in breeding for soundness.

[Bast]

I need to look at the 5 generation pedigree to give my opinion of your MH. I see things when i look at the 5 gen. ped. I cant access the info u posted.

If you have a system, the data provided should be adequate. "I know it when I see it" is not a system.

[louis finochio]

A pedigree is comparatively useless to you, unless u know how to identify the power that dominates the pedigree, & rules the family.
You must recognise the lines of breeding that really matter & those that dont.

You must find why the vital cross brought in. However none of us is likeky to recognise or extract valuable wisdom from a pedigree, unless we know what to look for & what value to place on it when we see it.

to continue.

[Bast]

A pedigree is comparatively useless to you, unless u know how to identify the power that dominates the pedigree, & rules the family.
You must recognise the lines of breeding that really matter & those that dont.

You must find why the vital cross brought in. However none of us is likeky to recognise or extract valuable wisdom from a pedigree, unless we know what to look for & what value to place on it when we see it.

to continue.

No cross is more vital than any other genetically.

The differences in full brothers makes this obvious. Each cross is an independent roll of the genetic dice.

Or are you simply saying that you have no system, and that you just look at each individual and make a pronouncement based upon what they are as opposed to saying that a specific kind of pedigree makes them that way?

[BenB]

Most of the pedigree guro,s look back in order to find a nick or so, but there are very less, who are able to predict un outcome, as mother nature has a big role in this game, as well as trainers, enviroment, raising young stock etc.
Even bad horses are coming in the play with good trainers