Louis's Blog on Inbreeding

[Bast]

Are you sure the pigeons aren't doing the hula?

They would look cute in little grass skirts doing the hula, wouldn't they? Sure, some are doing the hula.

[louis finochio]

Horse Color Sex Year Sire BM Sire Record Earnings Family
BLUSHING APPEAL2 (USA) b M 1997 HAZAAM WORLD APPEAL 34-2-8-6 $79,740 9-f Edit
DR PARK (USA) b H 1998 HONOR GRADES WORLD APPEAL 20-4-1-0 $231,559 9-f Edit
FIT FAZE (USA) b H 2002 HONOR GRADES WORLD APPEAL 62-9-9-7 $254,285 9-f Edit
HASTY SWORD (USA) ch M 1996 CRUSADER SWORD WORLD APPEAL 33-4-0-4 112,241 9-f Edit
JOYFUL PAT (USA) gr/r M 1995 NORTHERN JOVE WORLD APPEAL 45-4-9-5 $68,870 9-f Edit
JUSTENUFAPPEAL (USA) ch F 2008 EXCHANGE RATE WORLD APPEAL 5-2-2-1 $64,200 9-f Edit
KELLY LEAK (USA) b C 2006 RUNAWAY GROOM WORLD APPEAL 15-3-2-3 $741,750 9-f Edit
PRIVILAGED (USA) blk/br C 2007 SOUTHERN IMAGE2 WORLD APPEAL 8-1-0-5 $80,530 9-f Edit
STALWORTH H 1995 NORTHERN JOVE WORLD APPEAL ?-?-?-? 9-f Edit
STORMIN UP FRONT H 2000 STORM BOOT WORLD APPEAL ?-2-?-? $15,000+ 9-f Edit
ZOUNDS3 (USA) ch G 2004 JOHANNESBURG WORLD APPEAL 22-6-1-7 $214,763 9-f Edit

HASTY APPEAL b, M, 1990
World Appeal---Honey Deb, by Herbager

The APR above is from HA, she was a NFB, Fair Play over Dark Ronald

HA has tons of NP stallions & mares in her 5 generation pedigree, these NP stallions & mares are:

Stauton, Foray=The Tetrarch----Alsab=Domino----Intent, My Recipe, Iltis, Miss Frill, Mandalay, Quivira=Fair Play----Rough n' Tumble=Questionnaire

Alibhai=Hyperion----Up the Hill, Wyndham, Sugar Run=Swynford----Glen Arvis, Blue Larkspur=Petr Pan----Bull Lea, Roman, Boxeuse, Gala Belle, Escutcheon=Teddy

Ariel, John P. Grier=Ben Brush----Bosworth=Dark Ronald----La Farina= Sans Souci----Vaya=Barcaldine----Estoril=Gainsborough----Princequillo=Prince Rose----Papyrus=Rock Sand

My friend wanted to purchase a mare from a NP family of soundness. I advised him to buy a daughter of HA, as her soundness is family over the Individual. HA is an example of how sound our breed was before the arrival of those FB.

[Bast]

HASTY APPEAL b, M, 1990
World Appeal---Honey Deb, by Herbager

The APR above is from HA, she was a NFB, Fair Play over Dark Ronald

Fair Play over Dark Ronald?

This is what that means:

Fair Play (1905)
……Man O’War
…………War Relic
………………Intent
……………………Intentionally
…………………………In Reality
………………………………Valid Appeal
……………………………………World Appeal
…………………………………………Hasty Appeal (Fair Play is 8 generations back, 1 of 256 ancestors in that generation)

Bay Ronald (1893)
……Dark Ronald (1905)
…………Son-In-Law
………………Bosworth
……………………Plassy
…………………………Vandale
………………………………Herbager
……………………………………Honey Deb (Bay Ronald is 7 generations back, 1 of 128 ancestors in that generation)


Fair Play and Bay Ronald are so far back in the pedigree of Hasty Appeal that their influence on her is minimal. Unlike a male, Hasty Appeal does not have a y-chromosome from Bay Ronald.

More hogwash.

[louis finochio]

John: the E-Mail address u sent me is in error, it has been returned twice.

I have sent it to: john@peninsulapi, please send me your correct address, & i will reply. Thanks, Louis.

[louis finochio]

The Mighty Zip---type 2 FB 151 starts
Ocala Flame---NFB 123 starts
Mactaquac---NFB 129 starts
French Flame---NFB 102 starts
Fire Devil---type 2 FB 158 starts

Those type 2 FB above benefited from their prolific crosses of those NP stallions & mares. Those golden NP sire lines have left their hoof prints in the sand.

[Bast]

The Mighty Zip---type 2 FB 151 starts
Ocala Flame---NFB 123 starts
Mactaquac---NFB 129 starts
French Flame---NFB 102 starts
Fire Devil---type 2 FB 158 starts

Those type 2 FB above benefited from their prolific crosses of those NP stallions & mares. Those golden NP sire lines have left their hoof prints in the sand.

More lists, proof of nothing.

[BenB]

EXCLUSIVELY HANDPICKED

[Bast]

Horses with high numbers of starts are to be found all over, in terms of genetics.

Polynesian was a great-grandson of Phalaris in male line AND a great-grandson of Polymelus, the sire of Phalaris through his dam. He had reputation of siring individuals who were not very sound, but here are Polynesian’s progeny with 50 or more starts:

Beach 110 starts
Bureaucracy 74 starts (a half-brother to Buckpasser)
Cal’s Choice 69 starts
Genessian 78 starts
Glass House 107 starts (out a Blue Peter daughter, and thus 4 X 4 to Phalaris)
Hadnt Orter 57 starts mare
Half Breed 61 starts
Half Caste 124 starts
Hula Hula 50 starts mare
Initiate 66 starts (out of a daughter of Geisha-3/4 to Native Dancer)listed as horse, but no progeny
Islander 146 starts
On Leave 79 starts
Onrush 72 starts (3rd dam La Troienne)listed as horse, but no progeny
Outrigger 55 starts stallion
Polylad 63 starts
Tanker 123 starts
Tavana 67 starts stallion
The Smoocher 53 mare
The Tongan 56 starts stallion
Tropic King 93 starts stallion (sire of Vivas Vixen, a mare with 95 starts, whose 3nd dam was by Sickle, making Vivas Vixen 2 X 3 Sickle)
Will Mearns 101 starts
Yankee Road 56 starts stallion (sire of Gonny Susie, a mare with 57 starts)

The Magic Gelding Effect is obvious, but there are also some stallions and mares in this group.

Just about any sire will yield this kind of progeny, except for Storm Cat, whose sons must have to look like donkeys to be gelded.

Even Fusaichi Pegasus has a gelded son with 66 starts.

[louis finochio]

Bast: Your not given credit to those NP sire lines in your postings.

Ben: Bast cherry picked those tbs with prolificstarts not me. How many mares was Teofilo bred to last season?

[Bast]

Bast: Your not given credit to those NP sire lines in your postings.

Genetically, they were 1/2 Polynesian's doing AND more closely related to Phalaris than any contemporary TB. Why would I conclude that Polynesian--who, despite his reputation for unsoundness, made 58 starts--is the frail half of the pedigree???

The evidence is quite the contrary. You have to go all the way back to his 3rd dam to find a really hardy horse, Black Maria, a daughter of Black Toney (40 starts) out of a once-raced Frenchbred mare.

Polynesian seems to have brought the genetics altogether and seems greater than the sum of his past.

He looks solid enough to have been a good cow horse.

[BenB]

There are always two sides of a coin.

So any breeding can be good or bad as well, even together and mixed up.

Louis, you have been handpicking horses for five yrs now, and nothing has been proving your point, and now you are accusing Bast for Handpicking.

While you does not have been showing us a simple proof in setup with numbers.

I have written the next for the last five yrs. 5% from the whole breed might be phalaris free, if the 5% is responsible for 2% from all the breakdowns than I will believe you and otherwise I.ll be on the other side from the coin.

[Bast]

So any breeding can be good or bad as well, even together and mixed up.

Exactly so!

[Bast]

American Standardbreds continue to improve their times, despite

"....All modern-day Standardbreds can be traced back to the stallion Hambletonian 10 (1849-1876) who stood at stud in Chester, New York. Hambletonian is responsible for all the major sire lines leading to today's top trotters and pacers. The trotting branches flow through his sons Happy Medium and George Wilkes, while the pacing branches are through Happy Medium, Electioneer and Dictator...."

http://www.theblackbook.com/breed-info/the-stndrdbd.asp

The lack of any other male lines has not brought about the doom of Standardbreds--they're still improving.

[louis finochio]

I can look at a tb & tell if it's a FB or NFB from it's conformation. I have been right on 100% of the time. Those FB have been created by breeders that are in the game for a big return on their $. Their greed has turned the tables of unsoundness. Would you purchase a FB ? I hope not.

[DDT]

Louis

If you can tell a horse is a Fashion Bred or Non-Fashion Bred on looks alone, why is it you are not at the sales every year getting paid for this advice? If you have so many trainers that believe in your theory why do they not come to your rescue and support your theory on this forum? The answers to these questions are apparent to everyone except you. I would be willing to wager that you cannot tell the difference between an F1 or F2 by looks alone, but then we have only known about the F2 type of Fashion Bred for a couple of weeks, not five years.

DDT