Question About Position in Pedgiree:

[dray33]

As i read more and more about pedigree, I am trying to understand the imprtance of the different "slots" or positions on a subjects chart. Example: All along the bottom line (the 1st Dam, Second Dam...) is the important Female side of the subject. Right along that bottom section is the ever-important Broodmare sire lineage. Got it. Now to the top side, or sires side. The very top is the progressive lists of sires it took to create the SIRE of siad horse.

My question is three-fold:
1... What importance can be placed on the Dam side of the SIRE's lineage?
2... What would you consider the most imporatant "slot" in the lineage besides SIRE and FIRST DAM?
3... Is there a pattern that can be used, placing one type horse in "Slot x" and something else in "Slot Y"?

Here is an example to illustrate question 1:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/easy+goer
what importance is the SWEET TOOTH, PLUM CAKE and REAL DELIGHT line?

Any thoughts appreciated... Drew

[LaTroienne]

The dam's side has a lot to do with the horse produced. If a line is heavy with stakes winners, oftentimes their progeny will be v. good.

[dray33]

Agreed, LaTroienne, but that is not my question. Forget the "classic" definition of "Female side" or the whole First Dam, Second Dam, Third dam positions. I am asking about the female side ON THE SIRE SIDE only. I am a huge fan of buying horses with strong female pedigree, I am interesting in opinion on what importance can be placed on the Dam side of the SIRE's lineage?

Thanks, Drew

[ragsdaj1]

dray33,

I asked a similar question under the stallion section subject "Goods."

You can read Linda in Tx response back to my inquiry. Her posts in regards to pedigree analysis and hypomate are always informative and insightful.

JonR

[el camino]

Read Chpt 9 in Race Horse Breeding Theories by Frank Mitchel. The author of that chapter, David Dink attempts to objectively measure the position of "names" in the location of a pedigree. Using Stallions only, he identified each position in a pedigree tree starting at the sire position and working down. For example in the third generation of Bold Ruler, Pharos would be P1, Blenheim II P2, Display P3 and Pompey P4.
He then analyzed the foal crops from 1995-1997, looking at stakes winners and under his formula, doubling the importance of Graded stakes winners by counting them twice. He could then "count" the number of times each sire was found at each position in the third and fourth generations.
Personally I found the article very interesting and it certainly reaffirms the importance of good female families and quality broodmare sires. But I don't know how you can really draw any conclusion or develop a breeding strategy based on the fact that Nearctic was found in the P2 position in just one stakes winner in the third generation. (Which would be the Broodmare sire of the sire) Or that Secratariat is present in 167 stakes winners at that same position. (I wonder how many of those Storm Cat was responsible for?)
I would think these stats would be most useful when looking at the forth generation.

[Bill from WA]

The conduit mare profiles are developed using the dam lines of every horse found within a 4 generation pedigree, top and bottom.

Bill

[ZiaLand]

Or that Secratariat is present in 167 stakes winners at that same position. (I wonder how many of those Storm Cat was responsible for?)

A.P. Indy and Gone West probably had a good share, too.

[KamiBrooks]

interesting in opinion on what importance can be placed on the Dam side of the SIRE's lineage

I would think the importance of the sire's tale female line would be different if you were looking for a race prospect, a broodmare prospect or a stallion prospect.

For a race prospect, it might speak to how likely the sire was to pass on his traits

With the exception of the sire's immediate dam, I think the tale female line of the sire less influential in a broodmare or stallion unless it was part of a breeding pattern (e.g. dam's tail male line was bred to sire's tale femail line, like a daughter of ND in the sire's tale female line and the dam is from a ND line sire)

Clear as mud

Kami

[pistol]

Agreed, LaTroienne, but that is not my question. Forget the "classic" definition of "Female side" or the whole First Dam, Second Dam, Third dam positions. I am asking about the female side ON THE SIRE SIDE only. I am a huge fan of buying horses with strong female pedigree, I am interesting in opinion on what importance can be placed on the Dam side of the SIRE's lineage?

Thanks, Drew

I cut this out of an article years ago, it may address your question:


"Sire Numbers (S#) FF#s that consistently produced the best sires.
(They are:3-8-11-12-13-14*)
Running Numbers (R#) FF#s that consistently produced the best runners.
(They are:1-2-3-4-5*)
Computer analysis of the female families has identified those that consistently produced the best runners (R#s) and those that consistently produced the best sires (S#s). The best sires either traced directly tail-female, to these 5 S#s, and/or were inbred to them. "


I am not sure of the exact source of this but it may have been Ultimate2000 or some reference to that site. I did a search and found something similar to what I had cut years ago:

http://www.ultimate2000.com/families.htm

[bcassidy]

Wow, reading some of these answers to Dray33's question concerns me more than a little bit. In a typical one to many breeding scenario like the TB (one stallion breeds many mares), it is much easier to analyze breeding as identified by the male side of the pedigree------ whether that be the Sire or the Broodmare sire---there simply isn't enough progeny from individual females to do much analysis.
But just because the male side is easier to track doesn't mean the female side of any horse is less important than the male side (hopefully everyone agrees with this basic truth). There just isn't enough data to analyze if we only analyzed the breeding data through the female side of the pedigree. As a result of this anomoly---- the breeding industry relies heavily on the male oriented data and therefore most beginners look only at the top side of both animals. Over time those really interested in the game learn the significance of the female side of any animal and adjust their philosopy accordingly.
Therefore the female side of the stallion is extremely important and the location of individuals in this portion of the pedigree is also extremely important. There are many very successful patterns that exist for locations of certain individuals or their progeny in the female side of a stallion. One such example is a great son of Mr P over a great daughter of a son of ND.
My breeding philosophy takes this point one step further as I believe it is very beneficial to inbreed to the bottom side of stallion's pedigree, especially through the female line of both animals.
Dray33, I hope this explanation helped.

[Bill from WA]

Hi

The idea of the "sire" families, and "running" families as noted above, was first postulated by Bruce Lowe at the beginning of the 20th century. Been around a long time.

Bill

[dray33]

My breeding philosophy takes this point one step further as I believe it is very beneficial to inbreed to the bottom side of stallion's pedigree, especially through the female line of both animals.
Dray33, I hope this explanation helped.

As in Rasmussen Factor, bcassidy?

[bcassidy]

Dray33, I have to find a book on the RF factor so I understand what it is before I can answer your question. Does anyone know where I can find something quick on it? I am not sure if the RF factor limits itself to the tail female line or just to common females in the pedigree regardless of where they are located. Maybe someone knows the answer or can direct me to a quick reference spot.

[KamiBrooks]

From: http://www.chef-de-race.com/articles/ra ... factor.htm

The "Rasmussen Factor" (or RF) is a term used to describe inbreeding to superior female families through different individuals. As defined by the originators and developers of the idea, the late Daily Racing Form "Bloodlines" columnist Leon Rasmussen and his colleague, Rommy Faversham, the inbreeding must occur through the sire and the dam (i.e., be on both sides of the pedigree) and the duplication of the inbred female must be within five generations. Thus, inbreeding to full or half siblings within four generations would qualify, while inbreeding to the same son would not.

So it is not limited to the tail female line, but it is limited to inbreeding to a (strong) female w/in the first 5 generations where the inbred female appears in both the sire and the dam.

So inbreeding any male = not
breeding a RF mare or sire to another = not

[KamiBrooks]

there simply isn't enough progeny from individual females to do much analysis.

I actually have been playing around w/inbreeding on females. You should look at inbreeding on Grey Flight, considered a strong pattern expecially through sons What A Pleasure, Misty Flight or daughter Misty Morn. Now compare that to inbreeding on her daughter Misty Morn - IMHO much stronger especially through sons Bold Lad or Sunrise Flight. (I haven't looked at pedigree position)

There are many very successful patterns that exist for locations of certain individuals or their progeny in the female side of a stallion. One such example is a great son of Mr P over a great daughter of a son of ND.
My breeding philosophy takes this point one step further as I believe it is very beneficial to inbreed to the bottom side of stallion's pedigree, especially through the female line of both animals.
Dray33, I hope this explanation helped.

Mr P and ND are reverse (?) of each other. Mr P a Native Dancer line sire over a Nearco line mare. ND a Nearco line sire over a daughter of Native Dancer. Both heavily bred toward St Simon/Galopin in the 7-9th generations. I wonder if the ND mares were outcrosses (from ND's bloodlines) and when taken to a Mr P son, the mare's sire line was inbred on the sire's sire line. That would have had a built in sex balanced inbreeding to Native Dancer.

Clear as mud?