Origins of the TB jump

[vineyridge]

Thoroughbreds and part-breds have been steeplechasing since before 1800 in GB and Ireland. The German WB head of the Hanoverian Verband has stated that jumping ability is the MOST heritable factor--approximately 40%, compared to something like legs which are only 8% heritable.

My pedigree obsession is trying to figure out the best sources of "the jump" in the TB. Of the very early stock, Woodpecker, through Buzzard and his two sons, and full brothers, Castrel and Selim, of the Herod line are clearly prolific sources of great jumps racers and jumpers. The Matchem line also has a long history of great jumps racers. Yet oddly enough, in a review of the show jumping horses (all WBs) at the 2008 Olympics all but one or two trace back in tail male to the Darley Arabian, and all have tail female non-TBs. In the middle of the pedigrees going back to the beginning, one finds the usual abundance of Herod lines early on, but diminishing with time. BTW, ALL of the Show Jumpers trace back to TBs tail male.

There are some mare lines--Queenie and her daughters, Lavendula and her daughters, Bonne Cause and her daughters, Mumtaz Mahal and her daughters, Black Duchess to Blanche--who definitely pass on the jump gene. In fact, when you look at the mare lines, you have to wonder if perhaps the mare carries the jump and passes it on to her offspring. Or is it an equal opportunity talent that is passed through both males and females?

I'm sort of interested in the Spot mare as a very early source of the jump.

Comments?

[xfactor fan]

Wasn't Man O'War known for jumpers?

[vineyridge]

Yup. Man O'War is one of the two Matchem sire lines that still exist and still produce jumpers. The Australian/Hastings line is North American from the 1860s forward, and the Barcaldine/Marco line is the European version which has produced chasers prolifically, and is the sire line for Furioso, sire of WB jumpers. Both lines derive from West Australian, a son of Melbourne. Miss Disco was a daughter of Discovery, a branch of the Hastings line and the dam of Bold Ruler and Independence, both by Nasrullah whose dam was a daughter of Mumtaz Mahal. Independence was a champion chaser, and Bold Ruler is noted for producing jumping horses. Bold Bidder had three grandsons in the last two eventing Olympics. But Bold Bidder's dam was also the dam of a champion chaser by Olympia, Top Bid.

Man O'War's dam, Mahubah was out of a Merry Hampton mare, and all the Hamptons//Lord Clifdens are a source of "the jump".

[diomed]

I don't follow jumping much so I have to ask: How does Secretariat fare in producing jumpers?(Does not have to be in the sireline).
There is a TON of Castrel/Selim(and the rest of that clan) in his background.

[vineyridge]

Secretariat does not seem to have exhibited much staying power in the way of jumping horses. He's not in the pedigrees of many, but research on this subject is VERY difficult. There isn't a good database anywhere, people who show don't use registered names, and many "purpose bred" show TBs are not registered at all.

I was just looking up the past winners of the Grand National at Aintree, and one early Eclipse line that shows up a lot in early winners' pedigrees, even in tail male, is the Blacklock line. There is another full brother to Selim and Castrel named Rubens who is in a lot of the mare pedigrees of GN winners, and Buzzard sired a son named Langar who shows up a lot also.

[diomed]

Secretariat does not seem to have exhibited much staying power in the way of jumping horses. He's not in the pedigrees of many, but research on this subject is VERY difficult. There isn't a good database anywhere, people who show don't use registered names, and many "purpose bred" show TBs are not registered at all.

I was just looking up the past winners of the Grand National at Aintree, and one early Eclipse line that shows up a lot in early winners' pedigrees, even in tail male, is the Blacklock line. There is another full brother to Selim and Castrel named Rubens who is in a lot of the mare pedigrees of GN winners, and Buzzard sired a son named Langar who shows up a lot also.

Hmmm....
Thanks for the info.
Just wondered about Sec since his damline is so saturated with female line links to Selim, Castrel, and Rubens.
I would also like to know how offspring from their sis, Bronze, fared in the jumping phenom as well.
Teddy comes from this branch, as does The Tetrarch, Cremorne, Peter Pan, Good Goods, etc.

[vineyridge]

A huge number of jumping TBs can be traced back to Buzzard. Ajax's dam Amie is a Dollar (Selim) line daughter. Dollar is by The Flying Dutchman, and his daughter, The Flying Duchess, was the dam of Galopin and granddam of St. Simon. Rouge Rose was a daughter of Thormanby (Castrel) and the dam of Bend Or and Rose of York. The Tetrarch is also Thormanby sire line with linebreeding to Rouge Rose, and his are famous for the jump. Pocahontas is Glencoe, and he is Selim line. So the jump may be inherent in all TBs with good breeding needed to bring it out.

Teddy is an extremely good sireline for show jumpers--Damascus is still highly sought. His tail female line is to Bronze, who was also an excellent passer on of the jump, as you will find her daughter, the Clinker Mare, in many early chasing pedigrees.

It's an interesting exercise. Several mares won the early GN at Aintree, and their bloodlines make for very interesting reading.

I keep running into FF5 and Young Hag in pedigrees of mares who won the GN; and the 1829 Brutandorf Mare (sire line Blacklock, dam line Miss Cruikshanks/Gohanna Mare) show up a lot in tail female as well.

[skywatcher]

I don't know if this helps, but I was sent this link a while ago to a listing of TB's influences in Sport Horse breeding. There are some good commments regarding soundness issues for many of those listed

http://www.meadowviewfarm.com/TBSHbloodlines.htm

[xfactor fan]

Don't know much about show jumping, but don't jumpers need to be rather light in the forehand, and very powerful behind?

It wouldn't be a surprise that the Secretariat phenotype with that thick wedge shaped neck and deep heart girth wouldn't be the greatest jumpers around.

[vineyridge]

Don't know much about show jumping, but don't jumpers need to be rather light in the forehand, and very powerful behind?

That's called an uphill build. Take a look at the photos of The Flying Dutchman and St. Simon on bloodlines.net, and you could be looking at a German Holsteiner WB of today.

[Pan Zareta]

Several of Secretariat's sons are or were useful h/j sires, among them Innkeeper, Class Secret (dec'd.), and Seclusive (dec'd., known as Seclusive Z while he stood at Zangersheide).

I've ridden a wide variety of breeds and breed combinations over fences in the ring and field. IME, 'coordination' (more specifically, proprioception - awareness of, and finely tuned control over, the body's orientation in space) is a more important benchmark of jumping ability than pedigree or breed or even conformation. Undoubtedly, that's a heritable trait(s), but a multi-factorial one, something unlikely to be exclusive to any particular pedigree source beyond the first couple of generations.

[diomed]

So jumping ability seems to be more about immediate phenotype(among other factors) than distant genotype.
Interesting.
Also, the type needed to be successful on the course(racing)might not be a good thing for a good jumper. In other words, good jumpers were also failures on the course? Just something I thought of right now. Is there any evidence of this as well?

[njc2000]

I know event people that purposefully look for unsuccessful racehorses as event prospects, providing they have that uphill build and a thinking brain to go with it.
Seems that usually it is their stamina rather than their speed that is prevelant and reflects in their lack of wins, especially in this part of the country (NW) where short races (5-61/2 furlongs) are the norm. Also appears that high knee action which is desirable in jumpers isn't too condusive to long stride length in runners.
Could also be because of the amount of time that must be invested in making an event horse- the less initial investment the better. And a racehorse that doesn't run well, is, as we all know, an undesirable occupant of a stall in a trainer's shedrow but can be a welcome addition in the barn of an eventer.

[diomed]

Speaking of high knee action, Skip Away comes to mind.
Granted, he was a successful racehorse but he did have that knee action. Does anyone know if he passed that on and if so, have any of his get done eventing?
I am thinking of the uphill type and some of the old photos of racers more geared for stamina DO have that build. Just look at Phar Lap...Of course, he also had speed too.

[njc2000]

I came across a link full of useful information- you may already have this resource but here it is anyway........

http://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricSires ... Index.html