Inbreeding - how far do you go?

[Joltman]

Two questions -


1. How far back do you look at pedigrees. Do you really care much about the 5th, 6th, 7th, generation?

2. With one hypo mating I tried it gets 6S x 6S x 6S x 5D X 6D x 5D
Princequillo. Does it matter? It seems like a pretty good bit, but 3 of the occurences are with Prince John, only 1 with Somethingroyal. I would imaeine there are a lot of people who inbred to that one(!). For what it's worth, there are 2 other sons of Prince Rose in the 7th as well.

Any thoughts?

thx

jm

[louis finochio]

The key to Inbreeding is to have a balance of Ph. & NP sire lnes. Whe you look at those old warriors that started 45-80 starts, they all had prolific numbers of those same sire lines.

Our breed today is from one sire line, that is why we are seeing tons of single digit starts.

[Shammy Davis]

Louis, "tons" is a weight measurement. It's about 2000 pounds. "Starts" is a term used to denote the beginning and when written in the plural it means "more than one." NP and PH are your terms that have no scientific connection to any breeding theory and how would JM know what you mean since you, yourself, have no clear definition for either.

JM: I came across this paper sometime ago. Although, it is basically related to AI, many believe that AI poses the biggest problem (or as you ask, too much) when it comes to inbreeding in horses and this paper also addresses the TB. Much of the research currently available on inbreeding is related to specific items such as a particular performance, semen quality, etc.

http://www.nzerf.co.nz/Attachments/Are% ... ansfer.pdf

[vineyridge]

Nearco has a sex balanced top and bottom double to St. Simon in the 4th and also in the fifth. There's no real telling if that was a consideration with Tesio when he planned the breeding.

The fifth and sixth generations have been called "the engine room" of the pedigree. Certainly massive doubling in those generations was very common in the history of TBs in the 18th and 19th centuries.

[louis finochio]

Would those great breeders of the past, become FB breeders of the present. I would say no, because all of those NP sire lines, stallions & mares of the past, are not around today in great numbers.

[Bast]

Would those great breeders of the past, become FB breeders of the present. I would say no, because all of those NP sire lines, stallions & mares of the past, are not around today in great numbers.

Utter hogwash.

What did the Hancocks stand at Claiborne in the 1950s-1960s-1970s?

Tatan (Arg) 3 X 4 Phalaris
http://www.pedigreequery.com/tatan

Ambiorix (Fr) out of a Pharos daughter
http://www.pedigreequery.com/ambiorix

Court Martial (GB) great grandson of Phalaris
http://www.pedigreequery.com/court+martial

Pago Pago (Aus) 5 X 5 Phalaris
http://www.pedigreequery.com/pago+pago

Herbager (Fr) 4 X 5 X 5 Phalaris
http://www.pedigreequery.com/herbager

Sir Gaylord
http://www.pedigreequery.com/sir+gaylord

Buckpasser
http://www.pedigreequery.com/buckpasser

Nasrullah (GB) great grandson of Phalaris
http://www.pedigreequery.com/nasrullah

and Nasrullah's sons

Nadir
http://www.pedigreequery.com/nadir

Nantallah
http://www.pedigreequery.com/nantallah

and Nantallah's son

Ridan
http://www.pedigreequery.com/nantallah

Bold Ruler
http://www.pedigreequery.com/bold+ruler

and his sons

Reviewer
http://www.pedigreequery.com/reviewer

Bold Lad (USA)
http://www.pedigreequery.com/bold+lad

Secretariat
http://www.pedigreequery.com/secretariat

and Bold Ruler's grandson,

Bold Reasoning out of a Hail to Reason daughter
http://www.pedigreequery.com/bold+reasoning

The influence of Phalaris was already obvious by 1965.

By 1975, non-Phalaris stallions were not among most of the top sires.

Breeders aren't going to send good mares to stallions who are mediocre, just to have a pedigree fulfilling a theory, not TB breeders, anyway (Arabian breeders I knew worshipped the pedigree and frequently ignored the living, breathing horse).

[Shammy Davis]

JM: Here's previous thread on the King Ranch and their breeding program.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/view ... hp?t=31233

Some of the examples are very interesting.

[Pan Zareta]

Two questions -

1. How far back do you look at pedigrees. Do you really care much about the 5th, 6th, 7th, generation?

2. With one hypo mating I tried it gets 6S x 6S x 6S x 5D X 6D x 5D
Princequillo. Does it matter? It seems like a pretty good bit, but 3 of the occurences are with Prince John, only 1 with Somethingroyal. I would imaeine there are a lot of people who inbred to that one(!). For what it's worth, there are 2 other sons of Prince Rose in the 7th as well.

Personally, I'm interested in any back pedigree multiples that elevate the potential genetic influence of an individual to that of 3d gen. or closer. The hypo above could result in a foal that receives ~12.5% of its nuclear DNA from Princequillo, and meets that criterion.

[vineyridge]

There is a French show jumper and stallion who is 97%+ TB. He has almost 20% Blandford if all the lines are added together, and Blandford was born in 1911 or thereabouts.

[Joltman]

Two questions -

1. How far back do you look at pedigrees. Do you really care much about the 5th, 6th, 7th, generation?

2. With one hypo mating I tried it gets 6S x 6S x 6S x 5D X 6D x 5D
Princequillo. Does it matter? It seems like a pretty good bit, but 3 of the occurences are with Prince John, only 1 with Somethingroyal. I would imaeine there are a lot of people who inbred to that one(!). For what it's worth, there are 2 other sons of Prince Rose in the 7th as well.

Personally, I'm interested in any back pedigree multiples that elevate the potential genetic influence of an individual to that of 3d gen. or closer. The hypo above could result in a foal that receives ~12.5% of its nuclear DNA from Princequillo, and meets that criterion.

Thanks for your observations. I guess I'm trying to weigh the effects of those earlier generations and the potential for the older strains to be reinforced and come through. While there are lots of theories out there, it would appear that this is common approach. Does it 'work', i.e. improve the probabilities of a superior runner?

My guess is that even if it did, the replication of certain ancestors might be compromised if the trainer and owner never recognized the hidden potential, so the one that brings forward stamina is never sent longer than 6 f.

jm

[louis finochio]

Thats why those trainers or owners who are not pedigree researcher's of stamina late maturing & turf, keep racing their tbs at 6 fur.

A smart pedigree researcher trainer will spot the above & claim that tb & race it where it belongs, while the 1st. trainer will not fit the tbs breeding.

[Joltman]

Glad I can agree with you on this Louis - some of the other stuff, maybe not so much.

It might be interesting to see how the old operations that specially bred their runners then raced them themselves compared to those who simply sold for the commercial market, and much of the planning of the breeding effectively lost.

Pan Zareta - how common in your opinion is a 12% or higher rate? Any studies you know of that looked at it statistically?

thx

jm