Size and the TB

[xfactor fan]

On the Stallion of Doom thread, lots of mention is made of how frail and tiny modern TB's are compared to those historic horses of yesteryear. While the argument as presented is based on nothing by cherry picked examples, I'd like to ask a question of folks currently working with racing and sporting lines.

Are your horses---the ones in the barn, live and kicking---tiny and frail? If so are they racing lines or sporting lines? Probably would exclude any polo ponies from the sample, as they are selected by height (or lack of same)

Second question, if you have tiny horses, how much Northern Dancer do they have?
Sure makes sense that if you have lots of genetic influence from a stallion that was on the short side of the bell curve, it would shift things a bit.

I'd like to exclude any horses that are small due to known health reasons--a surviving twin, placenta problems, that sort of medical issue.

[Joltman]

one of my mares is 14 and change. Raced a few times. Retired sound. No real problems. Racing bloodlines. No ND

jm

[Bast]

Eclipse was 15 hands. His skeleton is still around, so that number is not a guess.

Some of the people I knew in the Arab racing game were convinced greater size would make a faster horse, but it's how quickly and efficiently a horse puts strides together and how long they can maintain speed that makes all the difference.

[ElPrado]

That would probably hold true in many Arabs. I've seen many that were pushing it to get to 15 hands.
At the same time, the current trend of 17 hand 2 year olds doesn't seem to help. The horses need time to grow into their stature and get their bones mature. I cringe when I see a baby that towers over the others in the starting gate. Rushing them through 2 year old sales then starting them at 23 months in races will break them down far more surely than worrying about some stallion 8 generations back in their pedigree.

[Bast]

That would probably hold true in many Arabs. I've seen many that were pushing it to get to 15 hands.
At the same time, the current trend of 17 hand 2 year olds doesn't seem to help. The horses need time to grow into their stature and get their bones mature. I cringe when I see a baby that towers over the others in the starting gate. Rushing them through 2 year old sales then starting them at 23 months in races will break them down far more surely than worrying about some stallion 8 generations back in their pedigree.

My 14 hand (in shoes--she raced in pony shoes) mare thought she was 17 hands. It never occurred to her that she was such a little thing. Turned out with a bunch of BIG TB hunter-jumper mares, she had them all on the run!

[vineyridge]

During Eclipse's time, he was large for a horse.

Actually, I'm always surprised at the number of 17h TBs that show up these days. Tiny and frail doesn't describe them.

To me, the ideal size for a sport horse is 16h--maybe 16h2" Any bigger and they have problems standing up to the pounding.

One of the very, very great show jumping sport lines is to Good Twist. He is said to have been 15.2, and his line has a reputation for throwing small. There is a 17h (or thereabouts) grandson in Ireland who has a reputation for small in his sport horses, and Good Twist actually produced a son who was just about pony size.

If I had to guess, probably the TB average is 15.3 or 16h. There are a huge number, though, of 15.2s on CANTER and other sites like that.

[ElPrado]

Someone on these boards is always worried about tiny and frail... he must never have met the offspring of a particular stallion. Just try to call them tiny, I dare you. On the other hand, that particular stallion has problems keeping his get sound, mainly because they are so big. It isn't a weakness so much as a problem of them being too big and fast for their own good. Trainers need to give that particular stallion's get more time before they ask them to go full out. A 17 hand 2 year old needs time to develop the tendons and bone structure he is blessed with.

[vineyridge]

Do US trainers bother with road work? IMO, there is nothing better for bones and tendons in legs than walking and especially trotting on hard surfaces. They certainly still do road work across the pond. One wonders about the breakdown ratio in the US vs. the UK/Ire.

Someone on these boards is always worried about tiny and frail... he must never have met the offspring of a particular stallion. Just try to call them tiny, I dare you. On the other hand, that particular stallion has problems keeping his get sound, mainly because they are so big. It isn't a weakness so much as a problem of them being too big and fast for their own good. Trainers need to give that particular stallion's get more time before they ask them to go full out. A 17 hand 2 year old needs time to develop the tendons and bone structure he is blessed with.

[Shammy Davis]

Where would a trainer do road work? Most tracks are located within or close to urban areas? I think you are right about the usefulness of a program like that, but I don't know how it would implemented with out removing the horses from the backside environs.

[ElPrado]

I can just imagine what an NYC policeman would do if confronted with Pletcher's string doing road work. 200 + 2 year olds coming at him down the Parkway... Talk about a traffic jam. Follow that with Zito...
The cop would need an ambulance within 10 minutes, he'd have heart failure.

[vineyridge]

Could one get the same effect from a treadmill?

I've read some research that says training for stamina (bones, tendons, muscles and breathing) is counterproductive for speed, given the way muscle fibers can modify type. There is also something about increased numbers of mitochondria due to training.

So, other than breeding, what sort of training regime would do the same thing as road work for legs and focus on creation of short twitch muscle AND stamina and tendons? Other than interval training, which should be a given.

As I see it, without doing something in training to strengthen the bones and tendons, racing is just offering up 2yos as sacrifices to gambling.

IE how has training the TB race horse changed in the last, say, forty years? How has it been affected by QH training, since we all know about world famous QH trainers who made a transition.

[ElPrado]

A treadmill? Sheer numbers would have it broken in days. American horses are trained on the track. Sure there are treadmills, also swimming pools, turn out paddocks, but do you realize the numbers we are talking about?
Pletcher alone has 200+ horses. Zito 100+. Asmussen another 200 or so. That's in NY alone. That's just 3 trainers. You need binoculars just to see across the stable area.

[oleos93]

My 2002 gray TB stallion to date, with ND in his pedigree, seems to throw small foals.....BUT he also was a small horse as a 1 yr old, 2 yr old and 3 yr old...now stands 16hh. Took him forever to grow.

His 2 Two yr olds, one a Feb foal and one a July foal both stand at 14.2 each.

I have had most tell me they are just slow growers and will mature like their sire did and it comes from the Riobot line.

My questions has always been to those that race their 14 and so hh horses at 2 and 3 yrs old, are you sure they are done at that height and if so did you feel intimidated racing them so small?

I am feeling I should delay my 2 yr olds because of their height....really torn on what to do...should I wait or should I just think this is all they are going to get?

[Bast]

My questions has always been to those that race their 14 and so hh horses at 2 and 3 yrs old, are you sure they are done at that height and if so did you feel intimidated racing them so small?

I raced a 14 hand Arab mare. I don't think she had any idea how tall she wasn't. Later, she was turned out with enormous hunter-jumper TB mares...and she was the Queen. She terrorized those mares.

If your horses have Attitude, I don't think they'll be intimidated.

A lot of very good 20th century horses stood 15 hands, and no one thought them out of place. We've become accustomed to a taller, chunkier TB. Look up the career of Dark Mirage, who campaigned at under 1000 pounds.

[oleos93]

You are right, if they have attitude they don't know how small they are, they just know how big their attitude is.

I am not one to care what other people say or think, but I dread any mumbles about how small they are.