Pedigree Query

Looking thru my copy of Sires Of American Thoroughbreds I have found a lot of really rare sire lines which might or might not be extinct; but I am intrigued by the possibility they might still be extant. Does any one know if t he following stallions in general, or sire lines in particular still have living descendents at stud?

GAY DUSTY ch 49 Glallant Gay - Big Doll, Big Brand
GLEN ALLEN ch 25 Sir Victor - Barbara Allen, Kenilworth
IRION CHIEF b 34 Scorcher - Connie H., Convoy
JIM T. br 28 Walter Finley - Jean T., Walter Finley (yes, she was bred to her own sire, shades of *Janus!)
I am involved in the hobby of fantasy horse racing. Although our horses exist only on paper and 3x5 cards, the pedigrees are based on real ones. If the line is extinct in the real world, it can be resurrected in the fantasy world.
Thank you.

Deartoall81 wrote:Looking thru my copy of Sires Of American Thoroughbreds I have found a lot of really rare sire lines which might or might not be extinct; but I am intrigued by the possibility they might still be extant. Does any one know if t he following stallions in general, or sire lines in particular still have living descendents at stud?

GAY DUSTY ch 49 Glallant Gay - Big Doll, Big Brand
GLEN ALLEN ch 25 Sir Victor - Barbara Allen, Kenilworth
IRION CHIEF b 34 Scorcher - Connie H., Convoy
JIM T. br 28 Walter Finley - Jean T., Walter Finley (yes, she was bred to her own sire, shades of *Janus!)
I am involved in the hobby of fantasy horse racing. Although our horses exist only on paper and 3x5 cards, the pedigrees are based on real ones. If the line is extinct in the real world, it can be resurrected in the fantasy world.
Thank you.

Hi, I don't know whether any of these are still active in sireline, but I do know that Irion Chief was used for breeding at a ranch in TX & I think Jim T. was too. Will add any of their offspring I can find to the db here.

Lucy, if you're around & it's convenient can you verify the breeding on Jim T. from an ASB or that older APR disk you have? I thought he was o/o Jane T. by Dr. Sonntag, but can't locate my source for that notion.

Pan Zareta wrote:
Lucy, if you're around & it's convenient can you verify the breeding on Jim T. from an ASB or that older APR disk you have? I thought he was o/o Jane T. by Dr. Sonntag, but can't locate my source for that notion.

APR has Jim T. out of Jean T. - both by Walter Finley. Eek.

Still, I would not be the least bit shocked if the APR is wrong - the pre-1930 records can be inaccurate. Jane T. is listed as having several foals by Walter Finley - Grace T. (1921), Pat Cleburne (1925), and Sul Ross (1926). They do not show her as having a 1928 foal. Meanwhile, Jim T. is the only foal shown for Jean T.. There could easily have been an error made, given the similarities in the mares' names.

What we need is a 1928 ASB. Anybody? Bueller?

Lucy wrote:APR has Jim T. out of Jean T. - both by Walter Finley. Eek.

Thnx for checking. is right. I thought Panic Girl was bad, but her i/b coeff. is actually a tad less, and Jim T's might be higher still depending upon what the pedigrees of Belle Bilton & Lutie Lynn turn out to look like. Those two would be in Vol. v or vi, which I don't have. I extended the tail female a couple of gens. for Our Lizzie & all the 'T girls' (Jean, Jane, Jennie - there's also Temmy, but I haven't added her yet) - but for extension of *Allie Slade's tf ref. is made to Vol. xi - another one I don't have. (Did manage to snag a Vol. x today for a very reasonable sum. ).

EDIT: Belle Bilton & Lutie Lynn should be in vol. ix

Got confirmation from ASB. Here's the complete rundown for both mares -

> Jane T 1915 brf x Dr Sonntag - Jennie T 1904 blk x Ben McCullogh:
>
> 1921 brf Grace T x Walter Finley
> 1922 no entry
> 1923 brf x Walter Finley [filly died 1924]
> 1924 no entry
> 1925 brc Pat Cleburne x Walter Finley
> 1926 b c Sul Ross x Walter Finley
>
> Jean T 1922 brf x Walter Finley - Our Lizzie 1913 br x Dr Sonntag:
>
> 1928 brc Jim T x Walter Finley
> 1929 not bred

Wonder if there was an error at the time of the mating - two brown mares, probably on the same farm, names are one transposed 'e' apart - whoops! Just guessing, of course.

Congrats on finding a Vol.X.....I'm trying not to seethe with jealousy. My own fault for giving up Ebay cold turkey! I do have a Vol.XI - but when I went to look up that TF you mentioned, it only referred me even further back, to Vol. VI. Sneaky!

Lucy wrote:Wonder if there was an error at the time of the mating - two brown mares, probably on the same farm, names are one transposed 'e' apart - whoops! Just guessing, of course.

Congrats on finding a Vol.X.....I'm trying not to seethe with jealousy. My own fault for giving up Ebay cold turkey! I do have a Vol.XI - but when I went to look up that TF you mentioned, it only referred me even further back, to Vol. VI. Sneaky!

I still can't find my ref. for Jim T. o/o Jane T., which probably means it's from a QH stud book or ad, and even then it could be my memory that's in error. Unless JC reg. produce turn up for Jim T. I'm not going to worry about it.

I hate getting ref. back to a Vol. I don't have. Most of the time I can pick up the second dam in what I do have, but not always. Vol. x will fill a pesky gap betw viii & xii. Vol. v would do the same for my gap betw iii & vii, but I haven't seen a v on eBay in quite a while, and I refuse to pay secondary market retail.

Changing the subj. - something weird just happened when I added Gavilan (1942 c Livery - Cetura by Chicaro), a domestic model per the '02 APR. It didn't show me another Gavilan in the db, but when I added he came up w/ (Chi) as country of origin (which I chg. to USA), with "El Ensayo (Chi) T2400m." in the info field. ????? If you can figure out what's going on here (same horse maybe?) pls let me know. I'd like to add 1942 Gavilan's rec. (139-18-36-19, $35,923).

Pan Zareta wrote:I hate getting ref. back to a Vol. I don't have. Most of the time I can pick up the second dam in what I do have, but not always. Vol. x will fill a pesky gap betw viii & xii. Vol. v would do the same for my gap betw iii & vii, but I haven't seen a v on eBay in quite a while, and I refuse to pay secondary market retail.

Dang pesky gaps. I've been steering clear of Ebay, but I have an equine book dealer near me that I visit once in a while....I can usually get lucky, and find some iffy-condition bargains I can patch up.

Pan Zareta wrote:Changing the subj. - something weird just happened when I added Gavilan (1942 c Livery - Cetura by Chicaro), a domestic model per the '02 APR. It didn't show me another Gavilan in the db, but when I added he came up w/ (Chi) as country of origin (which I chg. to USA), with "El Ensayo (Chi) T2400m." in the info field. ????? If you can figure out what's going on here (same horse maybe?) pls let me know. I'd like to add 1942 Gavilan's rec. (139-18-36-19, $35,923).

Go ahead and change the info - someone must have deleted another horse with the same name without removing the additional info first.

That stuff doesn't go away when a horse is deleted, so it was waiting there when you re-used the name.

Lucy wrote:I have an equine book dealer near me that I visit once in a while....I can usually get lucky, and find some iffy-condition bargains I can patch up.

Now I'm trying not to seethe with jealousy...

That stuff doesn't go away when a horse is deleted, so it was waiting there when you re-used the name.

Good to know - Thx!

To all of you looking for ASB's try the Lyrical Ballad bookstore in Saratoga Springs NY.
I got a near complete set vol 1 - 25, missing only vol 10 & 13.

Where did you find a vol X? I would love that one and XIII.
As well as a reasonably priced vol. 1 English SB. One I passed on wanted $850.00 sight unseen.

They get a lot of neat stuff in August for the track season.

Hi,

I would strongly suggest you folks bring up Jim T.'s pedigree from the database. Astounding

Pete

nferro9925 wrote:To all of you looking for ASB's try the Lyrical Ballad bookstore in Saratoga Springs NY.
I got a near complete set vol 1 - 25, missing only vol 10 & 13.

Where did you find a vol X? I would love that one and XIII.
As well as a reasonably priced vol. 1 English SB. One I passed on wanted $850.00 sight unseen.

They get a lot of neat stuff in August for the track season.

How neat are their prices? I'm totally envious of your ASB collection. Mine has more gaps. I got x on ebay. Paying secondary market retail prices for rare books gives me hives. I also have xiii & if you ever need a lookup in it or x, post here or pm me. I also have most of Harrison's works. His Early Am. Turf Stock is an indispensable companion to the early ASB's.

PZ

Pete wrote:Hi,

I would strongly suggest you folks bring up Jim T.'s pedigree from the database. Astounding

Frightening, isn't it. And he may be even more i/b than currently shown. I haven't finished researching some of the * lines. This was quite the fad among some breeders in TX from the late 19th cent. through 1940 or so. Check out Panic Girl (1930), the 5th dam of the great Olympic Dressage Champion Willoughby (aka: Keen).

PZ

Thanks for the offer Pan Zareta. I too get all twitchy just thinking of
some of the prices out there.
Lyrical Ballad isn't cheap, but he gives a guarantee and has at times a great selection.
He also some older early american colony books in his "vault"
I have to see about bring my collection back to Phoenix where I am.
Right now my dad still has them in NY where i am from.

Pan Zareta wrote:

nferro9925 wrote:To all of you looking for ASB's try the Lyrical Ballad bookstore in Saratoga Springs NY.
I got a near complete set vol 1 - 25, missing only vol 10 & 13.

From ebay, I was able to secure the 3rd edition of volume 2 of the GSB, published about 1835. It's quite the oldest book I have.
I also have APR from 1930 to 1980, so am always looking for pre-1920 ASBs, but always get outbid on ebay.

Deartoall81 wrote:I also have APR from 1930 to 1980, so am always looking for pre-1920 ASBs, but always get outbid on ebay.

Don't spend TOO much on one - I have a 1920-95 CD, and it's very handy, but not the most reliable of resources! The pre-1940 progeny records are very spotty, and the race records even more so....I spend a lot of time monkeying with the stakes DB, and have found many old stakes winners listed in the APR as 'unraced'. I mostly use it to steer me towards the correct volume of the ASB.

Speaking of which....I have a rare weekday off tomorrow, and will be in Cambridge. Perhaps a visit to the 'horseybook store' (as my fella calls it) is in order. New studbooks! Glee!