Catienus
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
Gerry,
I don't think he is that good looking, smallish, his foals look like him. I agree they run and win and some have become elite horses. Alot has to do with being in NY but they sent him back to KY last year and they could'nt get any mares for him in that market, so back he came to NY. I like him but like you said, at his stud fee you can't sell the foal for a profit so he is basically a breed to race guy. Bummer!
I don't think he is that good looking, smallish, his foals look like him. I agree they run and win and some have become elite horses. Alot has to do with being in NY but they sent him back to KY last year and they could'nt get any mares for him in that market, so back he came to NY. I like him but like you said, at his stud fee you can't sell the foal for a profit so he is basically a breed to race guy. Bummer!
Unfortunately, where a stallion stands has to do a lot with how they will fare commercially. It's total BS.
The only stallion I can recall starting in KY, moving to NY, and breeding himself back to KY was American Chance. Unfortunately, he died right after they announced he was going back to KY.
I'm not sure about his size but if he is small or his kids are small and weedy and need time...any stallion would be done commercially. Again Total BS to the real world of whether or not they will be runners.
I breed to race so small size and late maturing horses are fine with me!
Although, he has good 2YO numbers so I doubt that is the case with him..
Another point, his graded stakes winners, I believe were bred by the Ramseys (who own him and Champion Kittends Joy). They are supporting him with their stellar mares so he has one of the highest CI indexes in NY and is not breeding the "average" NY mare.
I say, let him stay non-commercial better for the small breeder who breeds to race....
BTW- He looks fine to me conformationally from pictures.
The only stallion I can recall starting in KY, moving to NY, and breeding himself back to KY was American Chance. Unfortunately, he died right after they announced he was going back to KY.
I'm not sure about his size but if he is small or his kids are small and weedy and need time...any stallion would be done commercially. Again Total BS to the real world of whether or not they will be runners.
I breed to race so small size and late maturing horses are fine with me!
Although, he has good 2YO numbers so I doubt that is the case with him..
Another point, his graded stakes winners, I believe were bred by the Ramseys (who own him and Champion Kittends Joy). They are supporting him with their stellar mares so he has one of the highest CI indexes in NY and is not breeding the "average" NY mare.
I say, let him stay non-commercial better for the small breeder who breeds to race....
BTW- He looks fine to me conformationally from pictures.
-
Rokeby Forever
- Darley line
- Posts: 6684
- Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:52 pm
- Location: Reno, NV
Does Freud stand for the largest fee in NY? ($10,000, I believe)
As lucrative as the NY Bred program is, you'd think "better" sires would stand in the state. Maybe some of the loopholes in the state program should be closed because a Lawrence The Roman (by Point Given) can come along as a registered NY Bred and dominate the Raffie's Majesties, Western Expressions, and Take Me Outs...it's not fair to the stallion owners in the state.
As lucrative as the NY Bred program is, you'd think "better" sires would stand in the state. Maybe some of the loopholes in the state program should be closed because a Lawrence The Roman (by Point Given) can come along as a registered NY Bred and dominate the Raffie's Majesties, Western Expressions, and Take Me Outs...it's not fair to the stallion owners in the state.
What synthetics are to California racing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU
Rokeby Forever wrote:Does Freud stand for the largest fee in NY? ($10,000, I believe)
As lucrative as the NY Bred program is, you'd think "better" sires would stand in the state. Maybe some of the loopholes in the state program should be closed because a Lawrence The Roman (by Point Given) can come along as a registered NY Bred and dominate the Raffie's Majesties, Western Expressions, and Take Me Outs...it's not fair to the stallion owners in the state.
The reason why better stallions don't stand in NY is because they can get "better" mares by standing in KY!!
Also, the above mentioned scenerio is the case with ANY state breeding program. You are not required to actually breed to a NY stallion just be in NY for a certain length of time and foal out there. Or foal out there and breed to a NY stallion if your mare doesn't meet the residency rule by a certain date. However, that's standard in most state breeding programs.
They do offer stakes races just for foals sired by NY stallions but they don't have to be NY-Breds. Howver, only one is for 3 and up and it's a turf race. The others are at 2 and 3.
Likewise, great NY mares are usually sent to great KY sires...think Friends Lake's dam.
Yes, Freud is the most expensive along with Regal Classic (who is at least proven).
They have no Nationally ranked stallions standing in the state who have at least 5% SW from foals AND a higher AEI than CI.
The former credible stallions (who qualified with the above criteria) who are now deceased or pensioned are: Cormorant, Dixie Brass, American Chance, Phone Trick, and Distinctive Pro.
They are in serious need of a top stallion.....
-
Rokeby Forever
- Darley line
- Posts: 6684
- Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:52 pm
- Location: Reno, NV
Pokeyman,
Your points are valid.
It's probably impossible for NY to get a top sire to stand there as long as just about anything can get registered as a NY Bred. I remember once seeing a Seattle Slew NY Bred...so what's the advantage to keeping a top stallion in the state? If stakes were restricted to foals of stallions that stand in NY (like the Empire Classic should be), as you point out, that might be a good start. Spite The Devil has won the Empire Classic two or three times, and he's by Devil His Due...hardly a NY stallion.
As far as Friend's Lake...Antespend wasn't what I'd call a "NY mare" that was later bred to Seeking The Gold. LOL! She raced in NY after racing in California earlier in her career, but she wasn't a typical Distinctive Pro NY Bred type filly (she was an Elmendorf KY bred). I think Antespend made NY headlines when she ran in a stake at Saratoga and passed out from dehydration after the wire.
Your points are valid.
It's probably impossible for NY to get a top sire to stand there as long as just about anything can get registered as a NY Bred. I remember once seeing a Seattle Slew NY Bred...so what's the advantage to keeping a top stallion in the state? If stakes were restricted to foals of stallions that stand in NY (like the Empire Classic should be), as you point out, that might be a good start. Spite The Devil has won the Empire Classic two or three times, and he's by Devil His Due...hardly a NY stallion.
As far as Friend's Lake...Antespend wasn't what I'd call a "NY mare" that was later bred to Seeking The Gold. LOL! She raced in NY after racing in California earlier in her career, but she wasn't a typical Distinctive Pro NY Bred type filly (she was an Elmendorf KY bred). I think Antespend made NY headlines when she ran in a stake at Saratoga and passed out from dehydration after the wire.
Rokeby,
Yeah, it's tough, for sure.
However, it's the same thing for a PA-Bred, MA-Bred, NJ Bred.
Basically, the stallions who can't make it in KY come to NY.
One point I forgot to mention though- the Dyanformer, Distorted Humor, etc NY Breds tend to run in open company as they are with big name trainers and not in the NY restricted races.
If they suck in open company, then they'll drop them into NY restricted. However, chances are they were big sale purchases with those pedigrees so the owners want to see open wins!
Yeah, that was my point about Antespend..great NY mares are NOT bred to NY stallions!!! She was kept in NY to foal out but was bred to KY sires!
Yeah, it's tough, for sure.
However, it's the same thing for a PA-Bred, MA-Bred, NJ Bred.
Basically, the stallions who can't make it in KY come to NY.
One point I forgot to mention though- the Dyanformer, Distorted Humor, etc NY Breds tend to run in open company as they are with big name trainers and not in the NY restricted races.
If they suck in open company, then they'll drop them into NY restricted. However, chances are they were big sale purchases with those pedigrees so the owners want to see open wins!
Yeah, that was my point about Antespend..great NY mares are NOT bred to NY stallions!!! She was kept in NY to foal out but was bred to KY sires!
-
parsixfarms
- Maiden Special Weight
- Posts: 117
- Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:04 pm
- Location: Saratoga Springs, NY
-
Rokeby Forever
- Darley line
- Posts: 6684
- Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:52 pm
- Location: Reno, NV
Was it Hidden Lake? I must be getting Kimmel brainlock. Thank you for correcting me, Parsix.
Pokeyman - With Antespend, I don't think it would have made much sense to breed a $1 Million mare to a $7,500 stallion. At $10,000, I think Freud is a pretty good alternative to Giant's Causeway (his full brother), but I think a mare of Antespend's stature would sooner go to the overrated Coolmore brother.
I have to wonder why Funny Cide, at this point in his career, doesn't stay with NY Breds. He's still a NY favorite and he could be more than competitive at the NY Bred level...much more so than his latest fiasco at Keeneland. There are some nice NY Breds like Naughty New Yorker, but I think he'd tower over them just on class.
Do you remember the $900,000 NY Bred that Baffert had a few years ago that didn't pan out...he later sent it to John Terranova to run in NY Bred allowances. Darn it...I can't think of his name - but that example does prove your point about high end owners dropping NY Breds in class when they don't pan out instead of the other way around.
Pokeyman - With Antespend, I don't think it would have made much sense to breed a $1 Million mare to a $7,500 stallion. At $10,000, I think Freud is a pretty good alternative to Giant's Causeway (his full brother), but I think a mare of Antespend's stature would sooner go to the overrated Coolmore brother.
I have to wonder why Funny Cide, at this point in his career, doesn't stay with NY Breds. He's still a NY favorite and he could be more than competitive at the NY Bred level...much more so than his latest fiasco at Keeneland. There are some nice NY Breds like Naughty New Yorker, but I think he'd tower over them just on class.
Do you remember the $900,000 NY Bred that Baffert had a few years ago that didn't pan out...he later sent it to John Terranova to run in NY Bred allowances. Darn it...I can't think of his name - but that example does prove your point about high end owners dropping NY Breds in class when they don't pan out instead of the other way around.
-
tinners way
- Allowance Winner
- Posts: 415
- Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:48 pm
Kentucky has done a great job at cornering the stallion market, and as they have done it they have continued to make the restrictions on being a KY bred tougher and tougher. It makes a joke out of the other state breeding programs that have freely opened themselves up as NY, PA, MD, TX, etc. have. Virginia and Maryland at one time were bigger and more prosperous, but Kentucky got it right. When you look at the CI of mares going to Kentucky stallions vs. regional sires there are some bright spots in the regional ranks. (There are a lot of KY stallions that bring the mares down but occassionaly get the big horse, while a regional stallion 9 times out of 10 has to bring up every mare that is available to him) I find it very hard to look at Funny Cide and Smarty Jones and call them NY and PA breds. By the very definition, they were bred in Kentucky, they just landed out of state. Kentucky got the stud fees and the taxes.
As other states either tighten their rules, or get alternative forms of purse revenue, then the lesser stallions are flooded into those markets from Kentucky to pick up the fringe. The good mares still go back though, as it is much cheaper to cut a deal on a stud fee to cover transportation and some inflated board, and keep those dollars rolling into the commonwealth. It has been and continues to be a brilliant strategy.
As other states either tighten their rules, or get alternative forms of purse revenue, then the lesser stallions are flooded into those markets from Kentucky to pick up the fringe. The good mares still go back though, as it is much cheaper to cut a deal on a stud fee to cover transportation and some inflated board, and keep those dollars rolling into the commonwealth. It has been and continues to be a brilliant strategy.