Teuflesberg

pfrsue · Postby **pfrsue** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:15 am

I see from Bloodhorse.com that he's got yet another start coming up on Sept. 8th (the Turfway Park Fall Championship Gr. III against older horses) after having finished poorly in the King's Bishop on August 25th. Is it just me, or does this seem like overkill considering that this has to be one of the most frequently raced three year olds in the upper tier this season?

Hold Your Peace · Postby **Hold Your Peace** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:33 am

His trainer is unfortunately also his co-owner so we won't see him move to a trainer that knows what the heck they're doing.

Jamie Sanders does a horrible job of spotting her horses hence a win percentage around 3%.

He's a nice horse, and obviously a sound one, but I can't help but think in other hands he'd run less often and ship less, but he would win a lot more.

Rokeby Forever · Postby **Rokeby Forever** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:16 am

I, for one, love Teuflesburg. It's nice to see a horse do what it was bred to do - run! I don't see how working horses fast every four days between starts keeps them any sounder than just running them. Overtraining and underracing horses hasn't kept horses around that long lately, has it?

Swap Fliparoo won the Test Stakes in her 20th start as a 3 year old.

Miss Shop won the Personal Ensign in her 24th start as a 4 year old.

Were they overraced...by Allen Jerkens?

I remember when bread and butter claimers would run 25 times a year. Now, they don't run more than 12 times a year - why not? A lot of them train as hard in the morning as they race in the afternoon.

bdw0617 · Postby **bdw0617** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:15 pm

the horse is as sound as can be, what's the problem? he's going to run in his races and win a couple.. nothing wrong with that.

pfrsue · Postby **pfrsue** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:31 pm

Don't get me wrong, I love the horse too. I love that he's sound and that he almost always puts in a game effort. Whether he wins or not, he shows up.

My concern is that he looked pretty lackluster in the King's Bishop. Maybe he was just outclassed, but maybe he's a horse who could use a little time off to relax and regroup. That's all I'm saying.

bdw0617 · Postby **bdw0617** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:38 pm

yeah I don't chink that had anything to do with him being sound, I just don't' think he's that good. when has he EVER been that close in a grade 1 on dirt?

geowarrior · Postby **geowarrior** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:43 pm

Teuflesberg is a very good sprinter, yet his connections wasted him by putting him on the Triple Crown Trail. Also I would consider the King's Bishop a throwaway for a number of the horses because of the heat.

ratherrapid · Postby **ratherrapid** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:03 pm

a 45 year old lady (or thereabouts) that breezes her own horses impresses the heck out of me. RR is lost again. which is it, do we want 'em to race or no :shock:

. personally, I'd be thrilled if Teufelsberg, a $9000 yearling purchase and Georgie Boy each win their breeder's cup races. Nick Zito would be proud.

bdw0617 · Postby **bdw0617** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:30 pm

geowarrior wrote:Teuflesberg is a very good sprinter, yet his connections wasted him by putting him on the Triple Crown Trail. Also I would consider the King's Bishop a throwaway for a number of the horses because of the heat.

he is? he's actually not a bad router, he's just not a grade 1 calibur router.

he's be the next lava man out in socal

Easy Goer · Postby **Easy Goer** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:37 pm

Sanders' winning percentage goes under 2% when you too Teuf. out of the equation. I guess it depends on what kind of stock you get but this seems pretty low.

The issue with Teuf. isnt so much how many times he's run, albeit he's run alot, but where he's being spotted. At least that's what seems to be the conventional wisdom on other boards. Your mileage may vary.

ratherrapid · Postby **ratherrapid** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:19 pm

so, are the boards saying they're without issue as to number of times the horse has raced, but, we're quibbling with the spotting? lol. Jaime Sanders should win an eclipse just for having the guts to race her horse and keeping him healthy. This lady is what racing is all about, and I'd wish her the best regardless where she spots. but, that's just my $.02.

Easy Goer · Postby **Easy Goer** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:36 am

ratherrapid wrote: so, are the boards saying they're without issue as to number of times the horse has raced, but, we're quibbling with the spotting? lol.

It seems that way, but I havent take a survey. Look at the comments on this thread alone, there are at least four posters other than me who say that this horse is "outclassed" "not that good" "not spotted well" etc. Not a consensus but that's quite a few comments on an issue that is sort of tangential.

It is true that each decade horses start less and less, the 1980s had more starts than today, the 1970s more than the 80s etc. But that doesnt prove more starts is bad does it? And it doesnt prove that horses are inferior today either. There is a market driven issue here as well that is contributing to this as well as drugs, etc.

Whether more starts are hurting horses is an open question and we've had many discussions on this board and elsewhere. If you care to make that argument go for it. It sounds like that is your pt. although you may be very surprised by the response you get.

ratherrapid wrote: Jaime Sanders should win an eclipse just for having the guts to race her horse and keeping him healthy. This lady is what racing is all about...

Well now you've really got me confused. It sounded like from your sarcasm that you thought the main problem was with the number of starts but now you say "Hats off to Jaime for getting this many starts out of him.."

Confused. Care to enlighten me?

[you know these smiley emoticons have an issue when you have to mouse over them to figure out what they are supposed to convey]

ratherrapid · Postby **ratherrapid** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 11:17 am

easy goer i'm just moving through at a rapid pace, so hope this makes sense.

From what I've seen of Teuflesberg the horse has exceptional talent, and I'd say in different hands might have a better record. Instead of saying that Jaime Sanders "can train" (with all the ramifications including "spotting"), my point was that I admire her and what she's done. Maybe I'm enamored with tough 40+ year old ladies that breeze horses, but there's more to it than that.

I have a personal theory that if you can keep them running they'll win. Hardly matters where they run, just so they run safely and live to race again. There's conditioning involved in racing, and when you do it enough you get a sharp fit horse, rare as that may be.

This seems to be the Jaime Sanders mode and it's worked to an extent. Where they probably go askance(just guessing from a few tidbits) is in their between race conditioning which undoubtedly would be the Nick Zito breeze 'em occasionally 4f and otherwise keep 'em in the barn model. This works questionably for both Zito and Teuflesberg.

Unfortunately the training that we're seeing is far too unsophisticated to consider "spotting". + you are unable to criticize it as an observer. Who knows? Perhaps the trainer (in that last race) decided the horse needed to acquire some speed for his route races and the best prep for that was a sprint. It's possible, when you have a long term view as this lady seems to have with her horse, that some races are preps instead of win destinations. Silly so to second guess the spotting without knowing what the trainer is thinking.

geowarrior · Postby **geowarrior** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:50 am

Here's my opinion on Teuflesberg.

a) He's a very good looking horse
b) He's a very durable horse
c) His durability must to some extent come from his conditioning and therefore his trainer has to have some credit. How many trainers have kept their big horses sound for as many races as Teuflesberg has run?
d) He trips or bobbles approximately 50% of the time coming out of the gate, in many cases this seems to be an advantage for him? Go figure.
e) He is at his best at sprint 6-7 f distances, but was put on the T.C. trail and got several very good results at longer distances, which is indicative of his class and heart. He is a horse who never gives up.
f) He gets very worked up in the paddock and post parade, which occasionally might affect his performance.

If I were to put him in the breeder's cup, it would be a difficult decision, but I might go for the dirt mile. I don't quite think he can catch Smokey Stover in the Sprint, but by god you know he'll always give it his best shot, which is why I've often won money on him as a long shot.

One thing is clear, although I haven't looked at his female family - everything else about him would make him a very attractive stallion once he retires.

Easy Goer · Postby **Easy Goer** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:44 am

He came up in short in a couple of big races this season and so my impression is that he's over his head, at least if placed in the top level. Maybe that's the same impression that others have based on having bet him or having read about him.

Maybe when he lost the Bluegrass after leading a very slow pace. But the polytrack is weird. That was maybe the most bizarre result of the 3 year old season. Was in that race that Cobalt Blue broke through?

Does Sanders train all her horses like this one? This might shed some light on whether he is exceptionally durable or this is her set method. if she can get a lot of starts out of them then I guess thats a good thing.

Whatever happened to Cobalt Blue anyhow? Or Dominican for that matter?