Hard Spun

[bdw0617]

I got to thinkin... just how big of an injustice hard spun is having to go though with his trainers. I don't even really care about his case of seconditis he seems to have. I just have one question


WHY HASN'T HARD SPUN SEEN THE TURF

he doesn't have good turf pedgiree

he doesn't have great turf pedigree

he doesn't have excellent turf pedigree

he has world class turf pedigree.


on the surface.. it's a deal, but not a big deal I know. but when you dig a little deeper.. the question gets louder and louder.


Hard Spun's sire is the grandsire of Dahehill dancer. Encosta De Lago, Galileo, Monteju and Hard spun share the same grandsire in northern dancer. Hurricane Run and Authorized both have Northern Dancer as a great grand sire.


within his female family, which is honestly more important in the grand scheme of things.. out of the few bright spots in his pedigree.. the best horse besides him that came out of the family is a horse called Nabeel Dancer who won the prix du Gros Chene, Pr De Meautry, Pr De Saint Georges, Keeneland Phoenix Sprint S. Gr.3 and the Ciga Pr De L'abaye De Longchamp a group one.. and ALL on turf.

I mean... not even 1 turf start? that's like having an AP Indy winning Grade 2's on turf in Europe without having a dirt start to boot!

[horsenuts]

I got to thinkin... just how big of an injustice hard spun is having to go though with his trainers. I don't even really care about his case of seconditis he seems to have. I just have one question


WHY HASN'T HARD SPUN SEEN THE TURF

he doesn't have good turf pedgiree

he doesn't have great turf pedigree

he doesn't have excellent turf pedigree

he has world class turf pedigree.


on the surface.. it's a deal, but not a big deal I know. but when you dig a little deeper.. the question gets louder and louder.


Hard Spun's sire is the grandsire of Dahehill dancer. Encosta De Lago, Galileo, Monteju and Hard spun share the same grandsire in northern dancer. Hurricane Run and Authorized both have Northern Dancer as a great grand sire.


within his female family, which is honestly more important in the grand scheme of things.. out of the few bright spots in his pedigree.. the best horse besides him that came out of the family is a horse called Nabeel Dancer who won the prix du Gros Chene, Pr De Meautry, Pr De Saint Georges, Keeneland Phoenix Sprint S. Gr.3 and the Ciga Pr De L'abaye De Longchamp a group one.. and ALL on turf.

I mean... not even 1 turf start? that's like having an AP Indy winning Grade 2's on turf in Europe without having a dirt start to boot!

Because dirt horses have FAR more value in the breeding shed then turf horses in America and HS has been tremendous on the dirt since his first start. Larry Jones has done an OUTSTANDING job with this horse going through the TC races and winning his two starts back.


America's highest priced stallions have always been top dirt horses with very few exceptions i.e. Bold Ruler / Northern Dancer / Mr P / Storm Cat AP Indy among others.

[bdw0617]

then where is the problem? It is hard spun's fault he has a turf pedigree? If you didn't want a turf horse, don't buy one.

with that said... one thing I never understood is why do Americans limit themselves to thinking that racing consists of NYRA tracks and Socal? with churchill sprinked in on the first staurday in may?

we are quick to ship a horse to Dubai for the Dubai world cup, but yet people act like a horse that likes turf won't get on a plane to the UK or to Dubai or Japan.

While in America yes... dirt is king. But a GREAT turf sire would be the first one we had in a long time in America, not to mention you:

1. if you own the horse... your racing opportunities open up x10. The top 15 horses purse wise earning in the world are all turfers. something to think about.

2. With the horribly weak American dollar... Europeans and Australians are coming to America trying to buy OUR horses to take to Europe and are limited to really Dynaformer with a couple other with some back northern dancer sprinkled in.

3. If the Dirt horses are that much more vauable.. why did a kingmambo colt sell for 11.7 million last year at keeneland? Isn't Kingmambo a Turf sire? last time I checked he was. Lemon Drop kid, his son is for all intents and purposes, a turf sire.

[winds]

I love turf racing, purses are bigger and horses seem to last longer. If you have a horse that can run well on both, to me that's a wonderful thing. As a stallion you are interesting to everyone.

I'd run him on the grass, definetly next year. But he's going to stud isn't he?

winds

[Maven]

To say he has a "world class" pedigree is also a huge over-statement. He has a "good" turf pedigree.

Furthermore, winning races on the turf is not going to increase his stud value. They have him where they need him to be to be the most marketable at stud.

I think the sprint is the best spot for him, but from a stallion perspective, I'd rather see a good 2nd or 3rd in the Classic than a 2nd or 3rd in any of the turf races.

[spex4me]

either I am losing it but I think I am seeing more attention turning towards turf racing. Which I think is awesome. So perhaps Hard Spun is just on the cusp of something bigger. I am lucky in regards to that as the track that I am very near to has a verrrrrry nice turf course and they are not afraid to use it!

[kimberley mine]

2. With the horribly weak American dollar... Europeans and Australians are coming to America trying to buy OUR horses to take to Europe and are limited to really Dynaformer with a couple other with some back northern dancer sprinkled in.

Dynaformer is the US's most appealing sire to Euro buyers? Really?

I'm sure that Cozzene, Rahy, Arch, Giant's Causeway, Street Cry, Royal Academy, Kingmambo, Mr Greeley, and Theatrical would disagree with you.

Rahy has a VERY smart juvenile named Rio De La Plata in England and an even better 3yo filly in France. He gets at least one really good one in Europe a year, including the likes of Noverre, Fantastic Light, Alloway, etc. Look for Rio de la Plata to be in the Juvenile turf and to improve as he ages.

Theatrical has a current Group 1 winning filly running in France. Zagreb and Theoretically were champions in Ireland within the last 10 years.

Kingmambo has four Group winners currently running in Europe (including an Epsom Oaks winner) and 3 more listed winners. He has five champions in Europe including an absolutely world-class filly in Divine Proportions.

Arch has a Group 3 winner and a Group 3 placed SW in Ireland. Les Arcs was a champion sprinter in England last year.

Mr Greeley has not one but two Group 1 winning fillies this year and the Euro buyers can't get enough of him. Finsceal Beo is likely going to be a 3yo filly champion this year.

As far as Hard Spun is concerned, why bother with the turf? As Maven said, running on the grass won't help his value at all.

[bdw0617]

okay kimberly, you are nitpiking.

Outside maybe giant's causeway, none of thoose horses for the most part sire better turf horses than what you can get overseas

[Maven]

You're wrong, Bdw.

Royal Academy, Rahy, Cozzene, Kingmambo, and Theatrical are all celebrated international turf stallions. If you dont think so, then you haven't been looking at many Euro pedigrees for much length of time.

In fact, these stallions sales average relied almost exclusively on Euro buyers for a great length of time.

Arch is a new stallion that the Euro's are very hot on with the great results he's getting over there. Mr. Greeley as well... although I'd imagine to a lesser extent over time.

[bdw0617]

You're wrong, Bdw.

Royal Academy, Rahy, Cozzene, Kingmambo, and Theatrical are all celebrated international turf stallions. If you dont think so, then you haven't been looking at many Euro pedigrees for much length of time.

In fact, these stallions sales average relied almost exclusively on Euro buyers for a great length of time.

Arch is a new stallion that the Euro's are very hot on with the great results he's getting over there. Mr. Greeley as well... although I'd imagine to a lesser extent over time.

no YOU are wrong maven.

and you know that I watch ALL racing, not just US. Hong Kong, JRA, Austrailan, UK, the only racing I can't seem to find is south african


I didn't say they weren't good turf stallions. They are all very celebrated turf stallions. hell that's why they are considered turf stallions int he first place.


I like Rahy. I LOVE rahy to be honest. But you can't sit here and tell me you are comparing Rahy to Monteju. or Theatirical to say,Encosta De Lago.

Yes.. Mr. Greeley has A very good filly over in Europe.. 2x grade 1 winning as a matter of fact. But if I were to list some of the horses say... Galileo has right now on the track that are 2, it wouldn't be close.



but OUR best isn't close to Europe's or Australia's Best. that's what I'm saying. and when you get to the top of the class.. the Arc, the Epsom derby, the king George, Melbourne cup, QE II stakes, etc... it shows. that's what I'm saying.

and what's even sadder (if that is a word) is that they are beating us with our damn bloodlines!!!!

[Maven]

Are you kidding? You really need to do some research before you make broad statements... and you ESPECIALLY need to familiarize yourself with horses of the last 10 years, not just the last two.

Five of Rahy's top ten earners were Foreign based-- Fantastic Light, Grass World, Tokio Perfect, Hawksley Hill, Noverre...

ALL of Royal Academy's biggest earners have been foreign.

All but maybe one or two of Kingmambo's have been foreign based...

It goes on and on.

And these are done with stallions who see a great number of dirt and/or North American mares... they dont see many of the great turf producers that the European stallions see on a yearly basis.

And for further evidence, the top European turf broodmares are often sent to NA to be covered by Kingmambo, Rahy, and Royal Academy.

[bdw0617]

Are you kidding? You really need to do some research before you make broad statements... and you ESPECIALLY need to familiarize yourself with horses of the last 10 years, not just the last two.

Five of Rahy's top ten earners were Foreign based-- Fantastic Light, Grass World, Tokio Perfect, Hawksley Hill, Noverre...

ALL of Royal Academy's biggest earners have been foreign.

All but maybe one or two of Kingmambo's have been foreign based...

It goes on and on.

And these are done with stallions who see a great number of dirt and/or North American mares... they dont see many of the great turf producers that the European stallions see on a yearly basis.

And for further evidence, the top European turf broodmares are often sent to NA to be covered by Kingmambo, Rahy, and Royal Academy.

what you are saying has no direct reflection on what I'm saying


it's expected for a TURF stallion in america, to have his best progeny overseas, where TURF RACING is more prevelant.


But do this... compare Rahy's top 5 to Monteju's top 5. Or Royal Acadmy's top 5 to Galileo's top 5.



that's what I"m saying.

ive of Rahy's top ten earners were Foreign based-- Fantastic Light, Grass World, Tokio Perfect, Hawksley Hill, Noverre...

Monteju's top 5 Earners: Hurricane Run, Motivator, Authorized, Scorpion and Falstaff

maven you are actually PROVING my point. On a good day, from what you have just listed... if the sun is in the right direction and the wind is blowing JUST right,.. he can get a world class turf horse.. like Fantastic light (and maven, i promise you, love ya to death, but you don't want to compare horse racing knoweldge) but for the most part.. Rahy's best are Group 2 and 3 winners. as you just said yourself by listing his horses.

Not only did Monteju win the Arc, his son Hurricane Run won the ARc, and his other son Authorized is the fav to win this year's arc. And I wouldn't consider Monteju a top 5 stallion in Europe overall. Well.. borderline top 5.

Why are we even aruging... Rahy is a good sire. he's a great sire and one of hte best damsires on earth. I would kill to have a filly by rahy. But I mean come on...day in and day out, he's not going to give you a World Class turf horse. he will throw some that will compete at higher levels for the most part.

[Maven]

(and maven, i promise you, love ya to death, but you don't want to compare horse racing knoweldge)

I'm going to let that slide because my initial response will probably get me banned.

And you completely missed the point of these world class turf stallions in America dont get the turf quality mares and the chances to run in the races of prestige as much as the Euro-based stallions do.

It's as simple as saying if Europe had a world class dirt stallion, whats the likelihood of us seeing his progeny in the Derby? The chances are, we wont see many if any.

The ones who did make it to Europe are often bought for 6 and 7 figures and become G1 caliber horses time and time again.

[Foggytrip]

Ive learned a lot just following BDW's posts

[Maven]

Care to share what you've learned? Maybe I'm continually missing something.