Pin Oak Lane in PA

[KBEquine]

KB - the gates HAVE NEVER been up when I've visited.

Wow. Like I said, I haven't been around there enough to know what really is "normal" but I do remember that when you'd said your mare was staying there temporarily, it sounded like such a good idea. I'm sorry it didn't work out better & glad you're bringing her home. We've got 5 off-site right now & I know they're fine, but it's my greatest wish to bring them home, too, and that's still a couple months off for us.

[bcassidy]

I guess it was Dr Solomon that must have called you back. It sounds to me like he was telling you he didn't need your business----as politely as he could. I am well aware of the horror stories of abuse that occur to mares and foals shipped to farms for breeding purposes but as the owner of a fairly large farm (mostly private but with a few excellent public customers) I can tell you there are many more reasons to support Pin Oaks policy than the other side of this discussion.
It should actually make you feel even better about this farm (which is a very large commercial farm) than boarding your mare at another farm with more relaxed policies.
For starters-----one of the single most significant issues in large breeding farm operations is the control of disease or illness. Why should anyone be allowed to walk all around a farm's property possibly infecting someone else's horses? It is extremely important to maintain the safest environment possible for all the horses on that property and the thought of just allowing someone to walk all over the farm and potentially infecting many of the animals-----some of them significantly more valuable than yours would not be fair to the other clients of the farm. Similarilly these same restrictions protect your own livestock at that farm from other possible infectors.
The second largest issue a farm has to deal with is liability--- to both yourself and the livestock they are physically responsible for keeping safe, even a mundane accident like not properly securing a gate could result in a loose horse---which can have castastrophic ramifications, not to mention serious bites and or kicks to consider.
I am sure it looks funny for a farm owner to ask you to leave the farm but after years of dealing with the public, I am sure he has seen enough signs to know which customers are more risk and trouble than they are worth. I don't mean to imply that you fit into that catagory but he probably has many more stories (from his perspective) about customers that he wished he had done something about earlier. Someimes it is better to end a relationship earlier to save bigger problems down the road. You might have to walk in his shoes for a while to know what I mean by these last few comments. I can assure you that operating a large commercial farm has many challenges.

[CurrentlyRed]

I don't mean to imply that you fit into that catagory but he probably has many more stories (from his perspective) about customers that he wished he had done something about earlier. Someimes it is better to end a relationship earlier to save bigger problems down the road. You might have to walk in his shoes for a while to know what I mean by these last few comments. I can assure you that operating a large commercial farm has many challenges to overcome if you want it to be successful

It doesn't even need to be a large commercial farm, although I'm sure that can make it even worse, simply because you deal with more people & animals. I have had fellow boarders who were supposedly horse-people & should have known better do outrageous things, like the R.N. who encouraged her snot-nosed yearling to get nose-to-nose and "say hello" to several other boarders' horses because he seemed lonely in that isolation stall. And I've also seen a loving father who was taking his daughter for a walk in the country open the gate & allow his toddler to walk among a strange herd of horses, just because she liked them and he wanted her to be happy. I know of other farms that also close gates over their access roads, simply to avoid a loose-horse accident or well-meaning folks wandering on the property and getting hurt, especially when there are stallions on the premises. And they have the right to expect you to make an appointment to visit "their office" just like you would expect them to make an appointment to visit yours.

The road to disaster is paved with good intentions & really like someone said - the farm rules cover all sorts of things that you may not agree with, and your main recourse is to vote with your feet. I've had to tell a very good friend I could no longer board my horse at her property because I didn't want to interfere with her income but could no longer put my horse at risk due to the actions of fellow boarders, who took the 'it's my horse & my right to do what I want' attitude.

It may be your hobby, but it is their business.

No matter how conscientious of a horseperson you are & how few or short your visits, if the farm is run responsibly, an employee is taken away from other duties when you're there [whether you want it, or not] to see to your comfort & safety. If you call ahead, they can at least plan for it.

[pembroke]

I have been very rudely treated by Dr. Soloman in the past. I was simply requesting information about the stallions. Great way to blow off a new customer. I vowed after the second "blow off" that I would not breed there! I kept quiet about until now.

[BridledObsession]

I havent been to Grantville PA yet to see my mare, she has been there for months, but they know I will show up unanounced the first few times. But I'm comfortable with the people she is with and will be going there within the next 2 weeks.

If you're ever worried or have reason for concern and can't get out this way, we'd be happy to swing by and check her out for you.

We had a horrible experience last year and will hesitate to ship our mares very far, for very long anymore. We did research, checked out the farm firsthand, the owner is a "Dr." who couldn't seem any nicer, checked in periodically over the phone, they have a great website, talked to the vet who came out to tend to her when she fell ill and subsequently tried to get her in foal, etc etc. But, bottom line, their standard of care isn't anywhere close to ours - and even the vet never said a word! Their actual horse knowledge, i.e. caring for horses unaccustomed to their climate/grass/feeding program, was sorely lacking. She foundered and almost died -- barely made the trip home. She's currently galloping through our pastures and looking more like the beautiful, mischievious mare we sent out there every day. I am not exagerating when I say that she was so bad when we got her back that many people suggested putting her down.

You just cannot take anything for granted. No one will care for your horse the way you would. Period.

[Daisy Jal Dastur]

You just cannot take anything for granted. No one will care for your horse the way you would. Period.

HEAR, HEAR!!! *applause*

[nythoroughbredvz]

BridledObsession, thank you I will be going down next week. Although I understand everyones buisness perspective I have had buisnesses most my life. However people and customer service are part of what you have to deal with and if you cant be courteouse to the people supporting you and your livelyhood then you are a failure at buisness you just may not know it! if it is a ongoing problem for farm owners! Why havent I ever seen a visitation guideline for owners to follow, Guidelines and what you expect from your boarders are and should be part of your contract. If you cant open your buisness to your customeras when in fact they are trusting you with their property, finances and a living being then maybe they should consider opening a gas station! Theres not much difference between boarding a horse and a daycare for children. would you take your children to a daycare that enforces no early pickup, visiting, etc.. no I think not. someones living horse can be just as close to them as a child!

[bcassidy]

nythoroughbred---I certainly don't mean to sound argumentative but there is a huge difference between running a daycare center and boarding horses. For starters I have never heard of a daycare student killing another child or an adult while at daycare, nor have I heard of a child at daycare kicking someone so hard that their life while not lost was so severely changed that it was never the same.
Second, in your businesses you may never have had to deal with infectious diseases and if so then you are very lucky---they are horrible. Just talk to someone with first hand experience about the effects on your business if you get an outbreak of one of these viruses. Maybe you haven't heard about one of these recent outbreaks but I am sure there is first hand experience on this board about the effects EHV--Herpes, strangles and MRLS can have on your business. The one thing I do know---- is that as activity on your farm increases both equine and human----the potential for these diseases go up dramatically.
I think some of your comments on this topic show complete naivety and I hope you never have to experience the effects of any these maladies in your own livestock but to not know that they are real concerns and need to be managed shows a lack of understanding on your part.
We all come to this forum to learn about the sport we all love so much and there are many points of view depending upon your involvement in this sport/business. I am only trying to give you a perspective from a different point of view on this topic. I can--- because I have a large farm and while not very commercial---I worry about these things everyday. Everytime a new horse arrives at the farm or a person drives up my driveway, you think about where they have been and who they have been in contact with---which includes my vets. I have instituted practices which hopefully keep everyone and every animal safe but yet, I still worry. It only takes a simple mistake to cause a very significant loss to either someone's life, their health, your property, a horse/s life or your business's reputation.
I respectfully point these things out to share the other side of the discussion which is the reason I think we all come to this forum. I welcome constructive criticism or further discussion on this very important topic.

[bcassidy]

BTW and for the record, I ship my mares to other farms and worry about them while they are gone. I am also a huge believer in AI and would welcome a policy change in this practice. Who knows--- if the infectious disease problems continue, the jockey club may have no other choice than to allow this significant change. I bet Austrailia wishes it had some other choices. I believe the herpes outbreak there came from a stallion shuttling from Japan????

[Sysonby]

BTW and for the record, I ship my mares to other farms and worry about them while they are gone. I am also a huge believer in AI and would welcome a policy change in this practice. Who knows--- if the infectious disease problems continue, the jockey club may have no other choice than to allow this significant change. I bet Austrailia wishes it had some other choices. I believe the herpes outbreak there came from a stallion shuttling from Japan????

I'm on your bandwagon. Sometimes I trade stories with a big QH breeder and when I describe moving mares around and not breeding to stallions because of the farm they stand at, he seriously looks at me like I'm completely insane. Of course he has his own problems with Equitainers and repo vets but the idea that you just send your mare into strangers because they happen to stand a stallion you like obviously struck him as loony.

[KBEquine]

BTW and for the record, I ship my mares to other farms and worry about them while they are gone. I am also a huge believer in AI and would welcome a policy change in this practice. Who knows--- if the infectious disease problems continue, the jockey club may have no other choice than to allow this significant change. I bet Austrailia wishes it had some other choices. I believe the herpes outbreak there came from a stallion shuttling from Japan????

I'm on your bandwagon.

I'm there with you both - I'd much rather ship & receive semen [although THAT process isn't exactly smooth all the time, either, as I learned when trying to breed a Trakehner once] rather than bring strange mares onto & off of the property for the stallions & trust that things will go well with all the live cover.

[nythoroughbredvz]

Second, in your businesses you may never have had to deal with infectious diseases and if so then you are very lucky---they are horrible. Just talk to someone with first hand experience about the effects on your business if you get an outbreak of one of these viruses. Maybe you haven't heard about one of these recent outbreaks but I am sure there is first hand experience on this board about the effects EHV--Herpes, strangles and MRLS can have on your business. The one thing I do know---- is that as activity on your farm increases both equine and human----the potential for these diseases go up dramatically.

To begin with... Do you quarantine new comers to your farm? not every farm does, that should be a must.. Do you require a vet check before they arive? I have only had one farm require my mare be thoroughly tested before I take her there.. I even had one farm tell me I didnt need a Coggins test, just bring her without it! thats insane.
So.. all the above concers you have listed above are legitimate and deffinatelly a threat to this industry, in fact it could one day pute a end to horse transportation all together without a lot of red tape and state &government interuption, but there is no mandatory testing, no mandatory quarantine. Once I have checked on my mare that was boarded without the farm owner present for the only reason that she didnt seem to have water or feed for at least 2 days! and I never once stated I would get out of my vehicle and tour the farm if I show up unanounced... I would locate a worker or farm owner before going any further!

I think some of your comments on this topic show complete naivety and I hope you never have to experience the effects of any these maladies in your own livestock but to not know that they are real concerns and need to be managed shows a lack of understanding on your part.
I have experienced it! Mostly pertaining to Domesticated Wildlife,Deer, Elk, Red Stag, and Dairy Cattle to be exact..I have been poked and proded with needles before and after every outbreak I was sent to observe.. I have seen thousands of them deystroyed for TB outbreaks,Chronic wastings,etc.. spent days there just so I could verify that they were deystroyed of and handled properly! thats exactly why the luxury of transportation of any domestic animal can and will be threatened!
naive is when you preach this but never practice the measures needed. My mares have been checked for everything upon my obtaining them. however the horses they come in contact with more than likely have not so that in itself is a risk all over again.
Maybe you could share your safety process when receiving, shipping, and also for returning horses?
In some states you cannot move domesticated wildlife untill it has been quarantined, tested, results evaluated. and upon delivery quarantine starts all over.. why isnt this done in this industry?
I really dont care what side of the fence you are on, If I have a mare boarded anywhere I will visit unanounced, or possibly a call when im enroute..to give them a few hours.go find a worker or owner to escort me to my mare for 5 minutes tops. Or she will not go there!

[Bunty Lawless]

I can understand that a farm likes to know the client is coming so they can pull the mare/horse/foal and separate it out, but to get rude and ask you to take your mare?

I'd be sending them a bill for my time and shipping charges paid to remove and relocate my mare since they "feel so uncomfortable" about me visiting my mare.

I'd address the invoice to the owner and/or shareholders of the establishment along with a brief summary of how you incurred the charges for shipping and relocation of your mare. Of course I'd check the contract first to be sure there wasn't some agreement to call before visiting.

[nythoroughbredvz]

If it is in the contract you have to respect that, but before I signed one with a farm I havent done buisness with in the past it would also be in there that I will make at least one unanounced or short notice visit.
In this case if it were my mare I would contact Tracy Farmer (albert the great), and anyone else housing a stallion there and let them know I have a complaint with the farm they are standing their stallions!

[Bunty Lawless]

bcassidy,

Regarding the spread of disease, I can totally respect your point, however I find the farm hands and the lax farm procedures contribute mostly to that.

Regarding liability issues, I can totally respect your point, however I've yet to find the farm ever takes responsibility for anything that happens to my horses. It is always the horse's fault.