A few stallions (past and present) tail female to La Troienne.
Accelerator
Ago
Al Mamoon
Belong To Me
Born Wild
Buckpasser
Cohoes
Eastern Echo
Fabulous Frolic
Flatter
Game Plan
Go For Gin
Jet Action
Lasting Approval
Mr Busher
Mutakddim
Not For Love
Ordway
Pembroke
Petionville
Pleasant Tap
Poker
Polish Numbers
Private Account
Rhythm
Roar
Semoran
Smarty Jones
Swiss Trick
The Axe II
The Name's Jimmy
Wild Colony
Woodman
Which unprovens to breed to in 2005...it's decision time...
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
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Bill from WA
- Breeder's Cup Contender
- Posts: 1936
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:20 am
- Location: Mountlake Terrace, WA
Horses of Value.
1. Invisible Ink by Thunder Gulch-Conquistress by Conquistador Cielo 2nd Kentucky Derby and 3rd in the Florida Derby $3500 Stud Fee
2. Mr. Livingston by El Prado-Vienna Knickers by Noble Saint winner of $429,285 Palm Beach S-Gr. III, Miami Mile Breeder's Cup H.-ECR,etc. By El Prado a top 2 Leading sire the last 3 years. $3500 Stud Fee
3. Desert Warrior by Deputy Minister-Navajo Pass by Secretariat winner of $171,783 3rd in Gr. III Derby Trial S., 3rd Gr. III Tremont S., Out of a full sister to Terlingua the dam of Storm Cat and by Deputy Minister the sire of Awesome Again. $3,000 Stud Fee
4. Graeme Hall by Dehere-Win Crafty Lady by Crafty Prospector Winner of $1,147,441 Arkansas Derby, Jim Dandy S.,etc. $7,500 Stud Fee
5. Forbidden Apple by Pleasant Colony-North of Eden by Northfields Winner of $1,680,640 Winner of Gr. I Manhattan H., Gr. II Kelso H.,etc. Half brother to champion Paradise Creek and out of a half sister to Theatrical. $5,000 Stud Fee
6. Honor Glide by Honor Grades-Becky Branch by Run the Gantlet winner of $1,397,187 winner of Gr. I Secretariat S., Gr. I Sword Dancer H.,Gr. II American Derby, Gr. II Arlington Classic, Gr. II Bowling Green H.,etc. by half brother to Horse of the Year A.P. Indy and out of a full sister to champion turf mare April Run. $4,000 Stud Fee.
Keith
2. Mr. Livingston by El Prado-Vienna Knickers by Noble Saint winner of $429,285 Palm Beach S-Gr. III, Miami Mile Breeder's Cup H.-ECR,etc. By El Prado a top 2 Leading sire the last 3 years. $3500 Stud Fee
3. Desert Warrior by Deputy Minister-Navajo Pass by Secretariat winner of $171,783 3rd in Gr. III Derby Trial S., 3rd Gr. III Tremont S., Out of a full sister to Terlingua the dam of Storm Cat and by Deputy Minister the sire of Awesome Again. $3,000 Stud Fee
4. Graeme Hall by Dehere-Win Crafty Lady by Crafty Prospector Winner of $1,147,441 Arkansas Derby, Jim Dandy S.,etc. $7,500 Stud Fee
5. Forbidden Apple by Pleasant Colony-North of Eden by Northfields Winner of $1,680,640 Winner of Gr. I Manhattan H., Gr. II Kelso H.,etc. Half brother to champion Paradise Creek and out of a half sister to Theatrical. $5,000 Stud Fee
6. Honor Glide by Honor Grades-Becky Branch by Run the Gantlet winner of $1,397,187 winner of Gr. I Secretariat S., Gr. I Sword Dancer H.,Gr. II American Derby, Gr. II Arlington Classic, Gr. II Bowling Green H.,etc. by half brother to Horse of the Year A.P. Indy and out of a full sister to champion turf mare April Run. $4,000 Stud Fee.
Keith
Last edited by Keith on Sat Jan 08, 2005 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
hi halo
You wrote "Good one, FOS. Start picking on a horse's broodmare sire if you can't find anything else that you dont like. Im sure you must have ragged on Deputy Minister and Successful Appeal and Elusive Quality, too. I mean, who could possibly like the broodmare sires Bunty's Flight, Fortunate Prospect, and Hero's Honor."
halo...a quality evaluation MUST be free of personal agendas (and attacks etc) and must include EVERY relevant issue related to the stallion (or prospect) in order to insure the credibility and integrity that helps define a quality (thorough) evaluation .
If you believe that my assessment does not agree with yours...fine...but I submit that ALL THINGS CONSIDERED Aldebaran's stud fee is out of line.
You have offered NOTHING that suggests otherwise.
I suggest that the 3 examples you chose (Deputy Minister...Successful Appeal...and Elusive Quality) ALL stood for stud fees (at the outset) that made sense ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. We can discuss more specifics re: each one later if you wish. And regarding your comments pertaining to the success of Private Terms and Our Emblem...fine...PT was $3,000 stud fee in 2004 (and probably good value at that) and OE was $15k but open to whatever discounted deal you could make (certainly plenty less)...enough said.
Some day (halo) you may sign contracts (and pay stud fees) for your own personal account in the $40k or $50k (or possibly even higher) range. I expect you may not have done that yet...your comments seem too cavalier to suggest you've obligated yourself to such a serious financial commitment yet (at least regarding $40k or $50k stud fees).
I suggest that talking about $40k or $50k stud fees (or being a cheer leader) and recommending (or telling) others to spend it is easy...but making a good faith effort to offer well thought out (and hopefully thorough) information (including possible options etc)...is at the very least enlightening and often beneficial. If you disagree halo...so be it.
But to accept Aldebaran's stud fee (which started at $50k) without (at the very least) discussing potential concerns including pedigree issues (including sire names that may not have fared particularly well or consistently at least in categories including successful high priced "dirt" sires) could be described at the very least as oversight or possibly foolish. I suggest that the Aldebaran's second dam's sire (Northfields) may speak volumes to the turf issue.
And when you add to that Aldebaran's come-from-behind-sprinter running style...possibly another potential red-flag is flying.
Despite it all halo...Aldebaran may be fine...but I suggest (once again) that his stud fee is out of line...ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
I'd like to think that before you (or anyone for that matter) may place your own hard-earned money on the line...or direct or recommend that someone else place their's on the line...you might consider the complete array of issues, info and options.
This is a very tough game...nothing easy about it except spending dollars...that's easy.
It's a great challenge...good luck.
Best to you.
Respectfully
You wrote "Good one, FOS. Start picking on a horse's broodmare sire if you can't find anything else that you dont like. Im sure you must have ragged on Deputy Minister and Successful Appeal and Elusive Quality, too. I mean, who could possibly like the broodmare sires Bunty's Flight, Fortunate Prospect, and Hero's Honor."
halo...a quality evaluation MUST be free of personal agendas (and attacks etc) and must include EVERY relevant issue related to the stallion (or prospect) in order to insure the credibility and integrity that helps define a quality (thorough) evaluation .
If you believe that my assessment does not agree with yours...fine...but I submit that ALL THINGS CONSIDERED Aldebaran's stud fee is out of line.
You have offered NOTHING that suggests otherwise.
I suggest that the 3 examples you chose (Deputy Minister...Successful Appeal...and Elusive Quality) ALL stood for stud fees (at the outset) that made sense ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. We can discuss more specifics re: each one later if you wish. And regarding your comments pertaining to the success of Private Terms and Our Emblem...fine...PT was $3,000 stud fee in 2004 (and probably good value at that) and OE was $15k but open to whatever discounted deal you could make (certainly plenty less)...enough said.
Some day (halo) you may sign contracts (and pay stud fees) for your own personal account in the $40k or $50k (or possibly even higher) range. I expect you may not have done that yet...your comments seem too cavalier to suggest you've obligated yourself to such a serious financial commitment yet (at least regarding $40k or $50k stud fees).
I suggest that talking about $40k or $50k stud fees (or being a cheer leader) and recommending (or telling) others to spend it is easy...but making a good faith effort to offer well thought out (and hopefully thorough) information (including possible options etc)...is at the very least enlightening and often beneficial. If you disagree halo...so be it.
But to accept Aldebaran's stud fee (which started at $50k) without (at the very least) discussing potential concerns including pedigree issues (including sire names that may not have fared particularly well or consistently at least in categories including successful high priced "dirt" sires) could be described at the very least as oversight or possibly foolish. I suggest that the Aldebaran's second dam's sire (Northfields) may speak volumes to the turf issue.
And when you add to that Aldebaran's come-from-behind-sprinter running style...possibly another potential red-flag is flying.
Despite it all halo...Aldebaran may be fine...but I suggest (once again) that his stud fee is out of line...ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
I'd like to think that before you (or anyone for that matter) may place your own hard-earned money on the line...or direct or recommend that someone else place their's on the line...you might consider the complete array of issues, info and options.
This is a very tough game...nothing easy about it except spending dollars...that's easy.
It's a great challenge...good luck.
Best to you.
Respectfully
Okay I'm gonna get in on this one and pimp my favorite. The only mare I am keeping for commercial breeding purposes (i.e. she isn't a pet) is going to Kafwain. He's got size, class and was early maturing horse with tons of speed who showed in his short career that he was able to carry his speed. My favorite is that he is free of Mr. Prospector providing a nice cross for my mare who is a stakes producer by a son of Mr. P.
hi austique
Kafwain was a VERY good horse...and it sounds like (on the surface anyway) he might be a very good choice for your mare.
You indicate your selection of Kafwain was for "commercial breeding purposes". His offspring should attract plenty of attention at the sales...and his stud fee should leave plenty of room for potential profit...certainly for a good one.
Respectfully
Kafwain was a VERY good horse...and it sounds like (on the surface anyway) he might be a very good choice for your mare.
You indicate your selection of Kafwain was for "commercial breeding purposes". His offspring should attract plenty of attention at the sales...and his stud fee should leave plenty of room for potential profit...certainly for a good one.
Respectfully
Thanks Bill from Wa. I am surprised as I thought that I would be by your selections. Do you have time and are you willing to share why you like them. Why did Walmac move Thunderello to NY? Living in Md., I think that I will look at Thunderello based on your thoughts for a mare that is not booked.
I heard a year ago from someone in Florida that Delaware Township was crooked. Do you know if that is true?
And please give me some insight on Talk Is Money. I know that his racing career was managed in an unortodox manner. His female family is a sire family.
I heard a year ago from someone in Florida that Delaware Township was crooked. Do you know if that is true?
And please give me some insight on Talk Is Money. I know that his racing career was managed in an unortodox manner. His female family is a sire family.
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Bill from WA
- Breeder's Cup Contender
- Posts: 1936
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:20 am
- Location: Mountlake Terrace, WA
Hi Liberty
I don't know what prompted Thunderello's move to NY. He was a blazing fast sprinter who's sire was a top sprinter. His "conduit" profile is heavy on speed, particularly in the B category. I haven't seen Delaware Township, so I can't comment on his conformation. He is another who's conduit profile leans substantially toward speed. He was a precocious sprinter who ran a sub 1:08 6 furlongs. Owned by Padua Stables, he got some nice mares. Talk Is Money is another sleeper with many of the same credentials as the other two. He won his only start at two, a 6 furlong MSW event, by 9.5 lengths. There is a lot of Brilliance in his pedigree. Of the three, I think Talk Is Money has the best chance of siring individuals who might do well routing as they mature.
Bill
I don't know what prompted Thunderello's move to NY. He was a blazing fast sprinter who's sire was a top sprinter. His "conduit" profile is heavy on speed, particularly in the B category. I haven't seen Delaware Township, so I can't comment on his conformation. He is another who's conduit profile leans substantially toward speed. He was a precocious sprinter who ran a sub 1:08 6 furlongs. Owned by Padua Stables, he got some nice mares. Talk Is Money is another sleeper with many of the same credentials as the other two. He won his only start at two, a 6 furlong MSW event, by 9.5 lengths. There is a lot of Brilliance in his pedigree. Of the three, I think Talk Is Money has the best chance of siring individuals who might do well routing as they mature.
Bill
Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams die, life is like a broken winged bird that cannot fly.
Langston Hughes
Langston Hughes
hi Bill from WA ... hi liberty,
Delaware Towmship's running style was as a come-from-behind sprinter. A race had to set up perfectly for him.
On the other hand Thunderello had "afterburners" and could set or press the pace. He could fly.
As for their offspring...I've seen a quite a few DT's. A fair number were nice horses (and very unsprinter-like)...but many had significant front-end issues. Delaware Township's sire Notebook was a very good sire...and a grand...and very correct individual. I suggest that Delaware Township does not come from that mold...but regardless he may be fine. I would suggest that it might be extremely important to select a mare with a very good front-end if one intends to breed to him.
Thunderello also has some issues...a touch back-at-the-knee...plus a foot that some may feel is too small...but I did not see any of those issues on offspring that I've seen. Quite the contrary...I saw impressive individuals (both filly and colt) with lots of body...good proportion and balance and plenty of leg under them. They were quite a handsome group.
When I first looked at Delaware Township...I was surprised (if not amazed) that Padua had purchased an interest in a stallion prospect with such a questionable front-end. It was highlighted even more when they brought out Yes It's True at the same viewing.
Yes It's True was quite special...but Delaware Township.............well...............you judge for yourself.
Respectfully
Delaware Towmship's running style was as a come-from-behind sprinter. A race had to set up perfectly for him.
On the other hand Thunderello had "afterburners" and could set or press the pace. He could fly.
As for their offspring...I've seen a quite a few DT's. A fair number were nice horses (and very unsprinter-like)...but many had significant front-end issues. Delaware Township's sire Notebook was a very good sire...and a grand...and very correct individual. I suggest that Delaware Township does not come from that mold...but regardless he may be fine. I would suggest that it might be extremely important to select a mare with a very good front-end if one intends to breed to him.
Thunderello also has some issues...a touch back-at-the-knee...plus a foot that some may feel is too small...but I did not see any of those issues on offspring that I've seen. Quite the contrary...I saw impressive individuals (both filly and colt) with lots of body...good proportion and balance and plenty of leg under them. They were quite a handsome group.
When I first looked at Delaware Township...I was surprised (if not amazed) that Padua had purchased an interest in a stallion prospect with such a questionable front-end. It was highlighted even more when they brought out Yes It's True at the same viewing.
Yes It's True was quite special...but Delaware Township.............well...............you judge for yourself.
Respectfully
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southcitytan
- Suckling
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:10 pm
For a Texas bred I love Captain Countdown. I got to know him while he was racing and follow his career -- very classy. 
http://www.captaincountdown.com
http://www.captaincountdown.com
hi southcitytan,
Thanks for the heads-up.
A six-time stakes-winning son of Relaunch (very nice)...and versatile (6 1/2 f to 1 1/16 miles) from age two to six...that seemed to love racing in Texas.
It'll be interesting to see how he fares...the Lone Star State may be a perfect proving-ground.
Very nice website also.
Respectfully
Thanks for the heads-up.
A six-time stakes-winning son of Relaunch (very nice)...and versatile (6 1/2 f to 1 1/16 miles) from age two to six...that seemed to love racing in Texas.
It'll be interesting to see how he fares...the Lone Star State may be a perfect proving-ground.
Very nice website also.
Respectfully
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southcitytan
- Suckling
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:10 pm
FOS,
His owners live in Texas and like to be able to go to his races -- that's why Asmussen kept him here. Glad you like his pedigree because I can't say enough nice things about how he was to be around. Very kewl horse and now a reasonable stud fee as well. I hope that he does prove to be a great sire.
His owners live in Texas and like to be able to go to his races -- that's why Asmussen kept him here. Glad you like his pedigree because I can't say enough nice things about how he was to be around. Very kewl horse and now a reasonable stud fee as well. I hope that he does prove to be a great sire.
Thanks for the comments Bill from WA and Fos.
Bill, I was most interested in your comments on the conduit mares. Did Successful Appeal have similar conduit mares? In a mating, are the conduit mares of the dam equally important?
Fos, I had heard previously that Thunderello might be slightly back in one knee. I have looked at his photograph and think that I can see it, but I wouldn't make a determinatiion from a photograph. The mare that I was considering breeding to Thunderello can produce a flat kneed horse. Therefore, I am going to remove her from consideration for him.
Let me share some additional info that I picked up on Thunderello. I was in Ky at the Keeneland sale on Tuesday, the 11th. I was speaking with John Jones of Walmac and asked him about the move of Thunderello to NY. He said that the owner made the move for economic reasons. He thought the horse would earn more in stallion bonuses than he would loose in stud fees by being in NY rather than KY. Who knows if that is the entire story, but that is what I heard.
Bill, I was most interested in your comments on the conduit mares. Did Successful Appeal have similar conduit mares? In a mating, are the conduit mares of the dam equally important?
Fos, I had heard previously that Thunderello might be slightly back in one knee. I have looked at his photograph and think that I can see it, but I wouldn't make a determinatiion from a photograph. The mare that I was considering breeding to Thunderello can produce a flat kneed horse. Therefore, I am going to remove her from consideration for him.
Let me share some additional info that I picked up on Thunderello. I was in Ky at the Keeneland sale on Tuesday, the 11th. I was speaking with John Jones of Walmac and asked him about the move of Thunderello to NY. He said that the owner made the move for economic reasons. He thought the horse would earn more in stallion bonuses than he would loose in stud fees by being in NY rather than KY. Who knows if that is the entire story, but that is what I heard.
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Bill from WA
- Breeder's Cup Contender
- Posts: 1936
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:20 am
- Location: Mountlake Terrace, WA
Hi Liberty
Successful Appeal's Conduit Profile is: 11-6-3-8-3 (17/8) 1.63
Leans heavily toward precocity and speed. Every horse within a 4 generation pedigree, male and female, contributes to the conduit profile, with an emphasis toward the conduit mares of the sire and dam.
Bill
Successful Appeal's Conduit Profile is: 11-6-3-8-3 (17/8) 1.63
Leans heavily toward precocity and speed. Every horse within a 4 generation pedigree, male and female, contributes to the conduit profile, with an emphasis toward the conduit mares of the sire and dam.
Bill
Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams die, life is like a broken winged bird that cannot fly.
Langston Hughes
Langston Hughes
California newbies and Keeneland notes
For the California crowd:
Marino Marini - $10,000. Best-bred stallion combining race ability to come our way in quite a while. From a sales perspective, he's dynamite as the owner is buying high-class mares to support him.
Here at the January sale, I was surprised to see how well the Pure Prize short yearlings are selling. The in-foal Empire Makers did OK. Buddha's were hit and miss (based on correctness).
As for who will be the hot yearling sire next year - put your money on Vindication.
Marino Marini - $10,000. Best-bred stallion combining race ability to come our way in quite a while. From a sales perspective, he's dynamite as the owner is buying high-class mares to support him.
Here at the January sale, I was surprised to see how well the Pure Prize short yearlings are selling. The in-foal Empire Makers did OK. Buddha's were hit and miss (based on correctness).
As for who will be the hot yearling sire next year - put your money on Vindication.