Fool's Gold = Big Brown aka "FLOP"

[joe horn]

come on dray i ask the guy to elaborate on mob run racing etc. now i've on the racetrack fifty + years if this guy knows something bring it but don't slander my business 'cause he's piss at a trainer RD for doing a fine job.....we would all love to condition a FLOP............but has he ever seen a live horse or horse race...a fair?

[NorthernDaylily]

Go back and re-read the 'mob' reference.. I was asking if they had any influence. Gambling interests often mean organized crime.. albeit often well hidden in this day and age.

Joe your a frustrated old man.. can't say as I care though. No I'm not deep in racing knowledge yet have attended races at 5 tracks in my life... very enjoyable too. Even took home more than I bet...

This is my last time picking up the stick and tossing it for you to go fetch. Next time your one on your own.

[larrygene]

Joe, save your reason and your thoughts for another place and another time. I suspect you and I are close to the same age. These people are of a different generation and era!!! I have quit addressing the issue of steriods because they don't get it!!! Pure and simple!!! They are smart and educated and think they have most of the answers to any problem whether it be in racing or the economy or the war!!! You name it and they've got a solution. You know and I know what and how the game is played. These people are good people. They mean well. They want their world to be the perfect world!! But as you and I know, the longer you live the wiser you become. Knowlege can be obtained from a book, wisdom must be obtained through living. As I have told them their ideas are noble but it won't happen!!! They do not have a clue what the rules are and how the game is played. They love to argue they do know. This is what 4,5,6,8 years of higher education gives us. Good people that haven't lived long enough nor been in the racing business long enough, that think they have the answers!! So in closing ,my friend, you and I need to step back, keep our thoughts and our wisdom to ourselves because these good folks will not stay in the game long enough to make a difference. They grew up with everyone getting a trophy and was told that everyone is equal!! They don't have the bottom to take all the lows that this game will dish out. They will leave. Its too brutal. They did not grow up failing. They were taught no one fails!! But as you and I know this game is not for the nervous novice!!!

Be safe ,be strong,

Larrygene

[Bill from WA]

Hi all

I have been on this earth for 76 years, and have been around horses all my life (60 years plus around thoroughbreds), and I think I know quite a bit about the game. I'm sure some wisdom has been collected in the course of my journey, but the biggest lesson that I have learned through all these years is... I don't know it all... by a very long shot. There were times in my life when I thought I did, but as time has passed by, I have come to realize that life is a continuous learning process, and I will never "know it all". I think that this realization is one of the greatest lessons of my life (so far). Just a heads up from one who has been there.

Bill

[dray33]

Joe, save your reason and your thoughts for another place and another time. I suspect you and I are close to the same age. These people are of a different generation and era!!! I have quit addressing the issue of steriods because they don't get it!!! Pure and simple!!! They are smart and educated and think they have most of the answers to any problem whether it be in racing or the economy or the war!!! You name it and they've got a solution. You know and I know what and how the game is played. These people are good people. They mean well. They want their world to be the perfect world!! But as you and I know, the longer you live the wiser you become. Knowlege can be obtained from a book, wisdom must be obtained through living. As I have told them their ideas are noble but it won't happen!!! They do not have a clue what the rules are and how the game is played. They love to argue they do know. This is what 4,5,6,8 years of higher education gives us. Good people that haven't lived long enough nor been in the racing business long enough, that think they have the answers!! So in closing ,my friend, you and I need to step back, keep our thoughts and our wisdom to ourselves because these good folks will not stay in the game long enough to make a difference. They grew up with everyone getting a trophy and was told that everyone is equal!! They don't have the bottom to take all the lows that this game will dish out. They will leave. Its too brutal. They did not grow up failing. They were taught no one fails!! But as you and I know this game is not for the nervous novice!!!

Be safe ,be strong,

Larrygene

That was some strong post there larrygene... I like it. I might take umbrage from it, being that some of it might have been directed at me But all in all, you got your point across.

One counterpoint if you don't mind. You say "as you and I know, the longer you live the wiser you become". I hope that wisdom doesn't come at a cost. I believe the longer you live, the more you need to listen. The more you need to learn. Because once you stop asking questions, and believe you have the answers, is about the time you DON'T have all the answers.. and stop learning.

For decades we have had men who thought they had the answers. Look at our sport today. You may think its just fine. I don't. Driven by greed, we abuse drugs, we abuse young horses, we abuse the breed. Maybe if left unchecked, our horses will start twice a year. Hell, we've allowed our yearlings for decades to get the juice. Maybe we should inject steroids in-utero. I don't know.

The one thing I DO know, is that I dont have all the answers. But I am gonna keep trying. My world isn't perfect, but that is exactly my target. I will fall short. I have many times. But as they say, the sin isn't aiming too high and failing, but aiming too low and achieving your goal.

[dray33]

Hi all

I have been on this earth for 76 years, and have been around horses all my life (60 years plus around thoroughbreds), and I think I know quite a bit about the game. I'm sure some wisdom has been collected in the course of my journey, but the biggest lesson that I have learned through all these years is... I don't know it all... by a very long shot. There were times in my life when I thought I did, but as time has passed by, I have come to realize that life is a continuous learning process, and I will never "know it all". I think that this realization is one of the greatest lessons of my life (so far). Just a heads up from one who has been there.

Bill

I don't know what to say. Bravo is all i can think right now.

[larrygene]

dray, I hope one day we can meet. You never know. You might come south and I might come north. I can assure you I would never demean you or your ideas. I absolutely know what you are saying. I absolutely agree there is a multitude of things wrong with the TB industry. I wish many things would change but as it stands today I am living and racing within the rules that are set forth and legal. I do not consider myself dishonest by using every legal tool available to win a race. I do not run for 2nd place, I run to win!!!! But, I do it legally. My motives are just as noble to me as yours are to you. I want a level playing field. I play by the rules that are legal today. If and when the rules change I will change with them. Until then I will play with what is legal.

[dray33]

dray, I hope one day we can meet. You never know. You might come south and I might come north. I can assure you I would never demean you or your ideas. I absolutely know what you are saying. I absolutely agree there is a multitude of things wrong with the TB industry. I wish many things would change but as it stands today I am living and racing within the rules that are set forth and legal. I do not consider myself dishonest by using every legal tool available to win a race. I do not run for 2nd place, I run to win!!!! But, I do it legally. My motives are just as noble to me as yours are to you. I want a level playing field. I play by the rules that are legal today. If and when the rules change I will change with them. Until then I will play with what is legal.

I believe you... and hope to one day meet and shake your hand. In the meantime, I am going to speak out against anything that tips a level playing field. I know you would like to see it too... maybe one day the sport will clean itself up before the government comes in and REALLY makes it a mess.

[valjoe]

They grew up with everyone getting a trophy and was told that everyone is equal!! They don't have the bottom to take all the lows that this game will dish out. They will leave. Its too brutal. They did not grow up failing. They were taught no one fails!! But as you and I know this game is not for the nervous novice!!!

Well said

[wallinga]

He was quite disappointing wasn't he?

[Roar]

you all wrong if you say - BB is not bred to get a mile and a half, and clearly, did not stay the distance on Saturday.
kentucky & preakness at quarter mile and check at the preakness last turn he show his speed & stamina

he is the big shot guy / you will see next AND HEWILL COMEBACK SOON
GO BB YOU THE BEST. AND NOONE CAN TOUCH YOU

[shatanka]

THANK YOU ROAR! i believe so too. this post upset me reading BIG BROWN AKA BIG FLOP. and i endured all the back and forth nonsense till it finally came to a head..I HOPE! thanks larrygene and dray for calming the situation. it's disappointing to read into this when all the FIGHTING is going on.
but i agree with Joe and Roar...it took a LOT for BB to get the job done in and WIN the first 2 legs of the TC..and UNDEFEATED AT THAT! Zito is PROOF of taking the TC in the past.

"It was the second Belmont Stakes victory for Zito , who in 2004 also spoiled a Triple Crown bid when Birdstone overtook another undefeated Kentucky Derby and Preakness winner, Smarty Jones, in the stretch. Big Brown is the 19th horse to lose the Triple Crown in the Belmont Stakes. The others are: Pensive (1944), Tim Tam (1958), Carry Back (1961), Northern Dancer (1964), Kaui King (1966), Forward Pass (1968), Majestic Prince (1969), Canonero II (1971), Spectacular Bid ( 1979), Pleasant Colony (1983), Alysheba (1987), Sunday Silence ( 1989), Silver Charm (1997), Real Quiet (1998), Charismatic (1999), War Emblem ( 2002), Funny Cide (2003), and Smarty Jones (2004)

Zito even said himself, "The Triple Crown is one of the toughest things in sports. Look at all the horses who didn't make it. Everything has to go right for the Derby. Everything has to go right for the Preakness. ANd everything has to go right for the Belmont"

THINGS JUST DIDN'T GO RIGHT FOR BIG BROWN..THAT'S ALL! this was the first defeat of HIS CAREER.

SO ..does that make these others that didn't achieve the TC all "FLOPS" too? NO. and i don't see as that term applies to BB either. i believe his failure at the Belmont was just a product of bad tactics, ( if he were on Winstrol..why take him off it for the last leg? some say he was still given it ...though it is pure judgement and not fact, no one knows but Dutrow and his affiliates whether he was actually taken off or not..i guess we never really will know.) if it were a fact, this would have shown in his performance as a withdrawl time would be the 30-45 days. the first 2 legs are a grueling time for a horse in this quest. he also endured that quarter crack in the last week and half...that took time out of his much needed training schedule which is IMPERATIVE to getting this far for the Belmont. that wasn't his fault. maybe he should have been pulled..but then we would have never have known. the heat was gruelling..maybe it affected him too? it just had to be as it was. Desmoroux's decision to hold him back..be it whatever may have happened...well...all i can say is..I AM GLAD BB IS OK. i think it would have KILLED the industry if anything would have happened to him. if he "felt" the horse was off...well kudo's to him for holding up. it is better to save a horse from a possible fatal breakdown , than to run him into a possible more severe problem. i see his point, though as disappointing as it was. if ppl would look at it differently, he actually protected the horse...and well yeah..IEHA's INVESTMENT and future breeding prospect too. they should be happy he did that if he felt something wasn't right...ya know? i hate that it happened...i wanted to see him win it. whether BB makes it at stud or not, is to be seen.

i did read they are pointing BB to the Travers Stakes August 23rd...so ..keep on BB and we'll be praying for you.

[NorthernDaylily]

"Hancock [Curlin's majority owner], a fourth-generation horseman who bred two Derby winners, has long been vocal about what he calls “the drugs and thugs” that have infested the sport"

Here's a horseman whose olfactory senses are still in tact. The racing game stinks... and he readily admits this. I'd be interested to hear his reference to 'thugs' explained.. per my earlier question of 'mob' involvement.

As a casual racing fan who loves to watch them run, what I find most disturbing is how so many horse people hang on BB's every fart. Like one horse can bring back racing's sagging popularity.. that is a sad joke. Like one poster on another thread wrote... I too have no ill will towards the horse.. what's not to like? The 'FLOP' moniker is labeling the scene which created this counterfeit chem horse.. litely raced with times not impressing the clock a-tall. The "cream" of an awful weak crop of horses. Yet the desperate focus on this one horse.. like racing could energize long term from a TC winner. Get real..............

The below link reveals committee chairs are from Ky and Illinois. Fancy that... more public hand wringing from the reform minded directed at ears full of horsesh*t. What those pols need is the same battery of chems injected in a hard raced horse stuck in these posturing clowns... let'm experience it first hand. Nice four gauge needles with rusty tips.... what they deserve. But that outcome is like any other circus run by a congressional committee... the outcome a forgone conclusion. More nothing.. more same ol'... pushing US racing farther into the dark.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/12/sports/othersports/12brown.html?ref=sports

[larrygene]

Have I missed something here?? I know you are referring to Arthur Hancock but when did he ever own a majority interest in Curlin?? As a yearling?? Unless there has been a change of ownership today I thought Jess Jackson was the majority owner. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Larrygene

[NorthernDaylily]

Just a direct quote from the NYT's............ referring to the above post.

"Jackson, 77, and Sanan, 57, are vocal advocates for reform in the bloodstock marketplace who have called for horse sellers to be more forthcoming about veterinary procedures and undisclosed ownership interests in their auction stock. Jackson has taken his point to court, suing his former bloodstock advisors for allegedly defrauding him in a number of transactions for horses and farm property"

GO GET'M JESS!

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/triplecrown07/news/story?id=2891042