Early patterns of the TB.

[Pan Zareta]

The 2006 study is downloadable here. The research was done for commercial purposes, and so does not correllate mtDNA haplotypes w/ family numbers and/or founder mares, but a few rough discernments can be made by anyone familiar w/ Hill's 2002 report.

[Matchemforever]

Re: Secretariat

So much of the following regards the broodmare sires (BS) that it makes me wonder. For what it's worth-or not- I'm a newbie at this:

Caruso, BS of Impeatrice, goes back to Domino on his BS line.
Would think that would be a source of speed, besides the Bold Ruler tail mail line.

Outdone, Miss Disco's dam, goes back to Domino 2x through her dam.

Besides the Phalaris, there seems to be a bit of interweaving of Domino in the background.

This is from a sport horse breeding site, but I found his thoughts on Secretariat and Discovery interesting, especially for Secretariat's ability to go the distance:

http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/pedigree-study.html

"Physically, I think Secretariat throws back more to Bold Ruler's dam sire: Discovery. However, the resemblance goes deeper than the "wrapper", Discovery and Secretariat also had a similar racing ability, that is, both of them were great weight carriers and stayers. Plus, in the breeding shed their performance is almost identical."

I was always puzzled by Secretariat's appearance and his ability to go long. He looked like a big Quarterhorse to me, just a big bull of a horse. I expected him to sprint- which he did, too. So if all that bulk was fast twitch muscling, what enabled him to also get the distance? Is it the meshing of distance in his pedigree too? Was he that rare thing, just the right mix?

Regarding Thoroughbreds in Quarterhorse pedigrees, you may find it interesting that Quickly, dam of Count Fleet, was also the dam of a pretty good TB racing Quarterhorse sire, Depth Charge, back in the day.

That pedigree was making me go "Huh?" for a bit, but there is the Domino influence top and bottom because the mare Correction was a full sister of Domino.

I think the early QH race breeders made fair use of the Domino lines.

Regards.

[xfactor fan]

I'm more and more convinced that cardio is the magic ingredient. Bulky fast twitch muscles use energy at a high level. Once the oxygen in the blood is depleted, the horse or human starts running on oxygen debt, and those big bulky muscles become a liability. The more efficient the heart and lungs are the longer the fast twitch muscles can function.

There seems to be a delicate balancing act between muscle types and cardio and only every once in a while does the breeder get it right--the correct mix of speed and distance. Secretariat had it.

[Twingirl]

I'm more and more convinced that cardio is the magic ingredient. Bulky fast twitch muscles use energy at a high level. Once the oxygen in the blood is depleted, the horse or human starts running on oxygen debt, and those big bulky muscles become a liability. The more efficient the heart and lungs are the longer the fast twitch muscles can function.

There is quite a lot of literature about this in humans athletes....that oxygen transport is more important for endurance athletes than muscle fiber type.

And big muscles in sprinters not being built up seems to make sense. Human subjects (just regular people who were sedentary) who did a 3-month resistance-training program had their fastest type of myosin decrease. When they stopped training, it went back up. So, a sprinter would have to de-train, or taper to stay sprinters.

I imagine some of this would make sense in a horse, too?

[diomed]

I imagine some of this would make sense in a horse, too?

Yes, this makes sense. Especially when comparing athletes that purely run certain distances. There are differences in Biomechanics, of course, but I would think it should be something worth comparing to.

Matchemforever,
Interesting that you mention Count Fleet and Domino. Both their female lines are suspected to trace to "hobby" mares.
Domino goes to The Hobby Mare and Count Fleet to The Spanker Mare(inbred to Old Morocco Mare, daughter of Old Bald Peg).
If this Speed gene is not restricted to mtDNA but is expressed on the X Chromosome then Haste in Count Fleet makes even more sense.
But alas, we haven't as of yet confirmed this to be 100% true and I will stick to speculation.
Unlike others on this board. LOL!

[Pan Zareta]

Interesting that you mention Count Fleet and Domino. Both their female lines are suspected to trace to "hobby" mares.
Domino goes to The Hobby Mare and Count Fleet to The Spanker Mare(inbred to Old Morocco Mare, daughter of Old Bald Peg).

Has something new surfaced recently? Old Bald Peg's origin has been a subject of rich debate, and persuasive arguments can be made for more than one scenario. Further muddying the water, Hill found 2 distinctly different haplotypes in three members of family 6 sampled, concluding that the "dam(s) of Betty Percival 1715 and Cream Cheeks 1695....may contain a genetic heritage different to that which pedigree information suggests".

Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to draw conclusion as to founder origin from mtDNA because all evidence to date suggests that representatives of several aboriginal mtDNA haplotypes were present and well-dispersed geographically before domestication and selection for type.

Matchemforever,
Domino is near ubiquitous in the back pedigree of most contemporary NorthAM-bred TB's & QH, and is usually there more than once (Affirmed had something like 14 x's in his 9gen ped). What makes that achievment most remarkable is that Domino had only ~25 foals. He and Discovery are from different branches of *Gallopade's clan, which was second only to the Cub *mare in the matriarchy of the 19th cent. American TB. Domino's dam traced to *Gallopade in tail female, and had two additional crosses. So arguably the most unique aspect of his contribution to a pedigree is the strong infusion of old American-breds. He was inbred to Lexington who was inbred to Sir Archy. Sir Archy was inbred to, among others, Herod, who most sources claim exerts the single greatest influence over the breed. It's purely speculative, but perhaps one factor in Domino's influence is to 'balance' the European sources of Herod.

[xfactor fan]

http://books.google.com/books?id=i7ilgw ... dU#PPP1,M1

This is most of the Bowen book on TB Breeders. Given that mentions of Domino in the last couple of posts, there is a great chapter on the King Ranch breeding program, and Robert Kleberg Jr.

Kleberg is the only person I know of that created two seperate breeds. The King Ranch Quarterhorse, and the Santa Gertrudis cattle. He loved Domino blood, and may be one of the reasons that Domino is still present in American pedigrees.

[Shammy Davis]

diomed posted:

Secretariat and his maternal QH relative Dash For Cash has always had me wondering if there is a speed connection in that mtDNA line.
I mean, it could be total coincidence but the two biggest freaks of two different breeds both come from the mare Imperatrice?
Awfully BIG coincidence if you ask me.
Bold Ruler did contribute many valuable genes but most believed this is where Secretariat got his speed and Somethingroyal contributed the stamina.
Perhaps momma gave a potential double whammy for both and something in Bold Ruler "turned-on" both the fast twitch and cardio?
Cardio stamina from Pricequillo?

Very thoughtful comment, but how do we account for Secretariat's very stout conformation and the fact that he had speed and could run all day? Freak? Is that a good enough evaluation of the pedigree?

I've got two mares through SYRIAN SEA tail female and neither carry the stoutness that BR/Somethingroyal provided SECRETARIAT. Bred to an AMERICAN CHANCE stallion neither throws to speed represented by offspring dosage.

[Pan Zareta]

Shammy, have you ever seen a photo of Find A Buyer (dam of Dash For Cash)? She favored Imperatrice about the head, but was built like a tank. I don't think any of her foals were quite that stout.

[xfactor fan]

Secretariat got the sturdy large frame from Discovery, Bold Rulers heavy fast twitch muscle, stamina from Princequillo and a 20 lb heart that enabled him to turn the Belmont into a sprint.

[aethervox]

This is an interesting tidbit:

In Bob Nack's book about Secretariat it says that he had

what Bull Hancock regarded as a mark of quality in all the Bold Rulers that could run. "You can pick the Bold Rulers out on their conformation," Bull once said. "I see the same musculature as Nasrullah. They all had an extra layer of muscle beside their tail running down to their hocks. It is a good sign when you see it in a Bold Ruler. It means strength and speed."

Evidently Blenheim II had the same hindquarters.

Nasrullah photo - http://www.circledhorses.com/azure_te.htm

Bold Ruler photo - http://www.spiletta.com/UTHOF/boldruler.html

Secretariat photo - http://pictopia.com/perl/gal?provider_id=368&process=gallery&ptp_photo_id=447595&gallery_id=&aid=&bid=&page=&&ref=em2f

Maybe the extra muscle gave them extra leverage?

[diomed]

Thanks for the photo links.
The Nasruallah link's web site won't load though.

Does anyone have a link to a pic of Find A Buyer?

The only thing we have for the pre-photo age horses are written descriptions and various paintings, unfortunately some artist were not very good or they painted to make the horse look different.

I love paintings by Stubbs and Troye.
Two artist that painted from life and actually captured what they really looked like. (Stubbs painting of the Godolphin Barb was copied from Morier's original and altered somewhat, the Godolphin Barb was dead before Stubbs could paint a likeness from life)

[Pan Zareta]

Does anyone have a link to a pic of Find A Buyer?

There's a photo linked to her entry in the db here.

[Bill from WA]

Another interesting link.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... tid=125071

Bill

[Shammy Davis]

I got my copy of SPEED AND THE THOROUGHBRED today. I'll read tonight. Forgive me for saying this, but going back beyond 5 generations is a real stretch for me. It's a conceptional thing. Something like trying to find Neanderthal genes in modern man.

To answer Pan Zareta's question, I've not seen a picture of FIND A BUYER. I'll check it out.

I do believe there is great relevance to this discussion, particularly to the speed to stamina issues we face today. I'm a great admirer of the TB that can run classic and above distances. I just love to watch the Irish and English races on TVG and locally we attend most of the point to point and steeplechase events both in the spring and fall. The tactics involved are very interesting.

I remember sometime back, Bill from WA suggesting the excellent broodmare sire potential of HOUSEBUSTER. I must say that I'm familiar with HOUSEBUSTER as a racehorse and sire, but the book is still out on him as a broodmare sire. I'm wondering if the modern day sprinters, like HOUSEBUSTER and SKYWALKER, that have been so sucessful on the track and as sires can move to the broodmare sire position and be as successful as Princequillo (a stamina quality sire) was with BR. Ultimately, I always come to the conclusion that SECRETARIAT really was a freak. I believe that BOLD RULER like NORTHERN DANCER was an exceptional stallion and lastly, because he was so exceptional he had more opportunities to be successful because he was bred to high number of quality mares. SEATTLE SLEW may be another example.

I think, in conclusion, that SECRETARIAT's conformation fits the sprinter style of TB. It didn't fit the classic distance IMHO. I think the points made related to fast and slow twitch muscles we'll give me pause to think more deeply into the issue, although I don't see that related specifically to SECRETARIAT'S conformation.