Early patterns of the TB.

[diomed]

aethervox,
Thanks for the link!
I am checking it right now.
I should be working on my homework right now, but I just can't resist the temptation. LOL!!!

[Matchemforever]

Sorry to bring this back to Secretariat, but after reading on the sport horse site about the similarities to Discovery, I had to look back a bit more.

(Diomed, completely understand- I shouldn't be doing this, other things to get done!)

This horse is four (?) generations back in Discovery's (BS of Bold Ruler) pedigree, but I found the picture of him fascinating when thinking of Secretariat:

http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/Hamburg.html

Hamburg also seemed to run like Secretariat- when doubted he could pull off a 2-1/4 mile race, he just ran away with it, like Secretariat did in the Belmont.

Descriptions of Hamburg on the site sound a lot like Secretariat, Hamburg described as a "robust" horse. I'm also looking at those socks in the back and blaze on the face, but this horse is described as a bay- not what I thought just looking at that photo.

Hamburg's dam line is the same one that produced Domino. Domino's dam was very inbred.

When it comes to discussions about horses more than three generations back, I don't know what to say about the influence.

IMHO, uneducated, new-to-this opinion, what gets transmitted may be what allows the genetic inheritance to be expressed- even all the way back to a Discovery or Hamburg- and why it doesn't always come through. Genetics can be like rolling the dice. Sometimes you get just the right combination or the "trigger" that lets a trait from the past come through again.

Thanks for letting me play in this arena.

[Matchemforever]

I'm thinking on the run here as I really, really should be doing something else...

When I was a kid, getting back into the dark ages now, I was into Quarter Horses.

It seems to me that for the racing QH, they had to keep infusing TB or the horses just got bulkier and ran shorter.

Reminds me of Europe's sport horse breeders. They seem to have to keep introducing TB to keep the horses from reverting back to the heavier type. At least, that's what I've read and heard.

Couple questions:

Does the sprint-type tend to be genetically dominant for some reason?
(Tendency to run to short, big muscled, heavier horses)

In the US the TB's were crossed on the Chickasaw (That's what I learned too) horses and western horses to produce the QH and very fast sprinters.

In England, the Arabs/Barbs were crossed on native horses.

Is the similarity in sprinting the native horse? Is there a connection between the native horses in England and US? Is that the blood that "nicks" in the background of the QH, why the TB cross works so well?

Is there a tendency for stayers to come from Barb lines and sprinters from Arab? (That doesn't sound logical because Arabs are known for stamina, but that kind of stamina is not quite the same as racing stamina)

[diomed]

Is there a connection between the native horses in England and US? Is that the blood that "nicks" in the background of the QH, why the TB cross works so well?

That is what I firmly believe.
The ONLY breed that doesn't degrade natural thoroughbred speed is the American QH.

Ironically, while the Barb is known to give a certain kind of stamina(like being used as a cowhorse, workhorse, and to walk long distances) they don't have racing stamina at extreme speed. However, they were known for their quick bursts of speed, which exists in the TB as well.

Leaning the body out, I believe came from the Turkish and Arabian blood, especially the Turk IMO.

I don't believe that the Arabian and Turk had much to do with the natural speed of the Native British running horse, whose background I firmly believe was mostly Spanish(Barb).
The Turk leaned and stretched out(made them taller too) the native British horse and gave them the ability to keep their fast gallop at longer distances.
This is just my opinion on the matter, however.
I find it very ironic that the Native running horses and Galloways of Britian were the result of lost Spanish horses just as it was in America.

[Matchemforever]

Here's a site that might help in tracing the lines back- and what the crosses with the local breeds might have been:

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/stalli ... merica.pdf

Apologies if you already have this one.

Maybe it will be helpful in determining the influence of local breeds on particular lines in the TB.


It's not just the Darley Arabian line, but the Sir Hercules line from Darley in particular, that seems to dominate today.

Wonder if there are any charts like this for influential mares?

[diomed]

Wonder if there are any charts like this for influential mares?

I don't think there are. It's unfortunate.
I suppose it's easier to follow a few sirelines in that manner vs 20+ families.
LOL!!
Janeen Oliver was doing some family charts about 8 years ago.
I don't know what ever happened with that project, but it was fascinating to say the least.

I have been looking over at Hanover's american family strains...
WOW! I have already found an imported Spanish stallion and mare in his blood.
Also, the abundance of family 15 when you go back is amazing.
Plenty of Janus and Mogul.
LOL!!!
You got me so behind today!!! I only got halfway through my assignment for tomorrow.

[aethervox]

When I was younger I was very interested in Arabians. What struck me was how versatile the breed is. They can be used for just about anything. They may not do it as well as a specialist breed would, but they can do it. There are Arabs used as cutting horses, Arab jumpers, etc.

They are also crossed with other breeds to make a horse that is more 'willing' to do what humans want (sorry I'm not sure exactly what the word is). As an example, Arabs are crossed with Morgans to make a less-stubborn horse, the MorAb.

I suspect that they added willingness to please and lighter bone when crossed with the 'native' horses, as well as their legendary stamina.

[xfactor fan]

Great find on Hamburg. I see the hind end looks quite a bit like Secretariat. Sloping croup, straight hind leg, deep chest.

[Pan Zareta]

It's not just the Darley Arabian line, but the Sir Hercules line from Darley in particular, that seems to dominate today.

Darley via Newminster thrives in the QH, courtesy of Hermit.

Wonder if there are any charts like this for influential mares?

(Assuming you mean the line of descent chart)
http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Families/FamilyNumbers.htm

[xfactor fan]

Two points.

The need for large fast horses with good indurance for war has been an issue for armies since the domestication of the horse. The British Isles were part of the Roman Empire, so warhorses from all around the empire could have ended up in the gene pool. This would include Arabs, Barbs, and breeds of horses that have vanished into the dusts of time.

Horsemen being horsemen, anything that could run fast would have been added to the mix of "British Running Horse"

Two this is a pretty knowledgeable bunch who probably know all this stuff already: but here goes anyway.

mtDNA is genetic material that lives in the cell cytoplasm. Regular DNA is contained on chromosomes in the nucleus. Two different methods of inheritance. mtDNA passes only from egg to egg to egg, down the female line and doesn't change fast or much. Chromosomes half their number and are handed off via sperm and egg.

So an egg will have the original mtDNA unchanged, and half the chromosomes of the mare. The next generation will have the maternal mtDNA plus an average of 25% of the chromosomes of the grand dam.

So over the course of generations the chromosomes will dance in and out of the mtDNA. Given what we now know about distance aptitudes of the different mtDNA types--the study that Bill from WA posted a couple of pages back--part of the challenge of breeding TB's may very well result from trying to match the correct mtDNA type with conformation.

Sprinter mtDNA, with a stayer body type. Stayer mtDNA with sprinter conformation. Only when the body types match the mtDNA would a superior racehorse emerge.

Anyone out there have their horses mtDNA typed and be willing to share the info? It would be very interesting to follow some of the lines back and see if there is indeed a historical correlation between conformation/mtDNA and racing success.

[Matchemforever]

I found one site that said the Quarter Horse also descended from the Irish Hobby but I'd have to figure out how that happened. I don't recall reading anything specific about importations of the Hobby to this country although the Spanish imports are documented. I did not include that one because it's the first time I've seen that claim.

It was interesting the claim that TB's cross better with the Irish Draught than the carriage horses of Europe because of the Hobby blood. Again, can't substantiate that.

It's the Asturian that I found interesting and perhaps a link to the origins of the Hobby. Given where they were from, maybe they were the ones imported to the Americas. The TB has been used to help create several breeds that gait and maybe there is something there in the background of the TB that allowed that to succeed. You also find the Paso's and such, so maybe the Asturian had something to do with that?


Google search on Irish Hobbies:

(Of course, can’t verify any of this information)

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepage ... /irish.htm
Irish Draught Horses
by Jane Hollis
“In the early days of Irish agriculture flock and herd keeping were the main forms of livelihood - crops were rarely grown which meant plough horses were not necessary. Instead, an active and enduring type of horse was needed which could also carry its owner to war. This type of horse, which was believed to contain Spanish blood, was called the 'Hobby' and is probably the predecessor of the Irish Draught. There is some controversy over the date that Spanish blood was introduced, but there is no doubt that there was regular trade between Ireland and Spain for centuries and that in the 16th century numerous Andalusian Barb stallions were imported”
…….

“The Irish Draught cross Thoroughbred mix is much more successful than crossing English carthorses with the Thoroughbred. It has been suggested that this may be because the two breeds are not too genetically dissimilar - in fact, the 'Hobby' is thought to have played a role in the formation of both breeds.”



http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/hors ... /index.htm

Asturian
“Also known as the Asturcon, this breed originated in Northern Spain. It is used for riding and packing and stands 11.2 to 12.2 h.h.
Centuries ago the existence of a small horse breed originating in the northwest of Spain was recorded. The Romans referred to these horses as asturcons and thought well of them - and they were popular with the French during the Middle Ages. Pliny (23-79 A.D.) described them as a small breed that did not trot, but moved in an easy gait by alternately moving both legs on one side.
The ambling gait was natural for this small horse, and done in such a way that it gave a comfortable ride. As a result, they become popular as ladies' mounts. Known as palfreys in England, they were called haubini in France, a word that later became hobbye and eventually hobby horse. Much of this blood was taken to Ireland, where the "Irish Hobby" was greatly admired. ………..”


http://books.google.com/books?id=2aUCAA ... t#PPA80,M1
The Horse of America in His Derivation, History and Development ...
By John Hankins Wallace
“……In regard to the speed of the horses bred for that purpose, Mr. Gervase Markham, the second Englishman who undertook to write a book on the horse, has given us some very interesting and valuable information. He brought out his work in the latter part of the sixteenth century, and it passed through several "enlarged and improved" editions.
In the edition of 1606 he says: "
For swiftness what nation bas brought forth the horse which excelled the
English ? When the best Barbanes that ever were iu their prime, I saw them overcome by a black Hobbie, of Salisbury, and yet that black Hobbie was overcome by a horse called Valentine, which Valentine neither in hunting nor running was ever equalled, yet was a plain English horse, both by syre and dam."

From this we must conclude that some horses from the Barbary States had been brought over previous to 1606, which doubtless antedated the arrival of King James' Arabian. This is the horse known as the Markham Arabian, and is in the above list of foundation stallions. In speaking of the Arabian horses as a breed, the Duko of Newcastle remarks as follows upon this particular representative of that breed: "
I never saw but one of these horses, which Mr. John Markham, a
merchant, brought over and said be was a right Arabian. He was a bay, but n little horse, and no rarity for shape. for I have seen many English horses far finer. Mr. Markham sold him to King James for five hundred pounds, and being trained up for a course (race), when he came to run every horse beat him."

The duke then goes on to speak of the staying qualities of the
Arabians: "
They talk they will ride fourscore miles in a day and never draw
the bridle. When I was young I could have bought a nag for ten pounds that would have done as much very eatily."

These remarks are repeated here because they are specially pertinent
in this connection. It will be conceded by every one who has any knowledge of the liorse history of this period that the Duke of Newcastle was the best-informed man of his generation on all subjects connected with the history and breeding of the horse. His preference for blood was in the following order: The Barb, the Turk, the Spaniard, the Neapolitan, and the handsomest of the English stock. It will be observed that in this classification the Arabian has no place. From these illustrations, to which other similar ones might be added, it seems to be evident that the native English stock did not lack speed so much as they lacked quality, finish, and beauty.

Perhaps size should be included in this enumeration. They had been bred and trained to run for centuries, and they were as stout and fleet as the exotics, but they lacked the qualifications of beauty and style. The foreigners possessed what the natives lacked, and more than all they furnished both the climatic and the blood outcross that were needed to re-invigorate the native character”


Another reference to the Asturian:
http://www.horse2buy.com/horse-breeds/irish-draft.html
“History
The horse has enjoyed an honored place in Ireland since before recorded time. Scientists have established that the early Irish horse stood from 12 to 14 hands, and historians believe that it began to increase in size with the arrival in 1172 of the Normans, who brought with them the larger, heavier horses needed to carry men at arms. The medieval Irish horse was, of course, the famous Irish hobby, a riding and cavalry horse which found its way to Scotland in the 13th century and was in demand all over Europe until the end of the 16th century. Many of these early „hobbies" were Asturians from the northern tip of Spain. The arrival of heavy horses with the Norman knights, and later the Andalusian or Spanish barb which came with the Spanish trade, and finally, the Thoroughbred , eradicated the hobby and led to development of the Irish Hunter or halfbred horse as we know it today.”



It's kind of interesting that the implication here is that the Arabian....not so much.

And maybe, just maybe, that kind of answers a question I had about Diomed's idea that only the QH does not dampen the TB speed. Because I was having a hard time with the idea that the Hobby blood was the nick, since these horses would all seem to have the same Barb/Turk/Arabian/Spanish background. Why wouldn't they nick?

Maybe because when it comes to the Arabian, perhaps not as important as thought in the development of the TB?

Another thought on that, since the TB is in the background of so many breeds, is that the body type is similar enough. The QH was developed for working and not so much for nice gaits or appearance. It could just be that on body type, the QH allows the speed to remain.

Which is just an uneducated thought on the matter.

[xfactor fan]

Other than the quarter horse and TB, are there any other breeds of horses bred for sheer speed at the gallop?

[diomed]

Other than the quarter horse and TB, are there any other breeds of horses bred for sheer speed at the gallop?

As far as I know, there isn't another breed that comes close.
They do race Arabians and Akhal-Tekes at the same distances, however their world record times are a joke next to the TB. I don't think they even try to race them shorter like the QH.
I remember seeing a link to the record times at comparable distance of the TB. It was a comparison to the Arabian and Akhal-Teke. The Akhal-Teke was slightly faster than the Arabian.

[Matchemforever]

After a quick look I cannot find another breed that came about or primary purpose is to race at the gallop.

The Quarter Horse is not really breed for just racing.

Like Warmbloods, where certain lines jump better and others do dressage, there are lines that race and lines that work cattle.

The racing QH will have a fair amount of TB blood. Even if registered QH, once you get back in the pedigree, there's a lot of TB.

For an interesting, if not up to date look at top racing QH sires, here's the 2002 list:

http://www.quarterh.com/top2703.htm

Looking back in those pedigrees and looking at the pictures is something else. There are TB's that look every inch like a QH and a few pictures where I find little difference between the TB, or mostly TB, QH- and TB stallions standing now for TB racing.

I also found a few claims for horses having the "large heart gene" but I didn't know that could be definitively proven. Where it occurs in racing QH TB sires, would not seem to indicate, if true, that the large heart gene would be enough to carry a horse long distances.

As I mentioned previously, I think they have to keep adding in TB or the QH's keep running shorter and shorter. Therefore, I find it interesting to find some Raise A Native lines more recently added in.

They certainly made extensive use of the Domino lines. Find it interesting to see some Man O' War crosses in there but either that helped keep them running longer (440 yds or slightly over) or it wasn't enough to dampen the sprinting qualities.

The Dash horses, Chick and Deck will trace back mostly to Top Deck and Three Bars. (TB's) Some Depth Charge.

I haven't kept up on QH's in years and I wonder if they are having break down problems too. I thought I'd read that the Three Bars were prone to breaking down.

For an interesting look at a non-racing pedigree- although quite heavy in Three Bars blood, take a look at the progenitor of the HYPP malady in QH's:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/impressive6

One wonders if they went back to the same well a little too often and a little too close. Was it an odd chance mutation or something pushed by too much close inbreeding?

And what that might mean for so much breeding in TB's via particular shire lines?

What is also interesting is that Impressive was a halter horse sire- massive muscling, yet he was predominately TB. Does that imply that the heavy muscling can be/is a TB trait? You look at a real working QH, without a lot of race blood, and you won't find such a massive horse. Well muscled. yes. But not muscle bound. Look at pictures of the original QH's and you won't generally find that much muscle. Or maybe I've been looking at pictures too long.

You see a lot of linebred/inbred crossing in the origins of the TB but I wonder if they could get away with it because the breed was still relatively new and hybrid?

Once you fix a trait, how much further do you dare go before you begin to run into problems?

I don't think outcrossing now as a solution is going to work. From what I found in a few posts above, maybe the Arabian is not that important in the background of the TB. It certainly sounds like adding in Arab now would not have the desired result because the Arab may not be primarily responsible for the development of the TB.

Blasphemy, I know!

[aethervox]

I think the Arab was important to the Thoroughbred, but not for speed.

The Bedouin treated their horses like companions, not livestock and created a breed that had a good disposition, was loyal, and intelligent, yet had enough spirit to use in warfare. As an example of its disposition -- Arabians are one of the few breeds where the United States Equestrian Federation allows children to show stallions in nearly all show ring classes.

I think the Arab brought intelligence, loyalty and willingness to the Thoroughbred - intangibles to be sure, but important none the less.